Noel Tyl
Astrology => General Astrology Discussion => Topic started by: Halina on June 16, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
-
Maurice McCann in the book "Astrology Looks At History", edited by Tyl, says..."Most astrologers would probably agree, that the Sun, Moon, and Mercury, as well as the Asc & MC in combination of major aspects to Uranus and Neptune, are most likely to contribute to genius."
Do you agree, or do you have your own theory of what in the chart contributes to genius. Is it an abundance of quintiles, perhaps a large stellium of planets in one sign, or a Gauquelin factor, or Solar Arcs and transits maturing at the same time, a high IQ?
Think of a famous artist, a noted writer, a computer genius, a chess champion, a sports hero with numerous trophies, an inventor, a religious notable, a top astrologer...
Pick your top 3 and tell us what in their chart contributes to their genius status. To get you started, how about Einstein, Bill Gates, da Vinci, Beethoven, Billy Graham, Elvis Presley...
Maybe you are a genius when it comes to cooking, art in school, golf, mechanical ability, card games, stock market, billiards, computer, etc. What does your chart & experience show you to be near genius at?
Remember quite a few geniuses were school drop outs.
-
I may be a bit of an iconoclast here, but I don't think quintiles have all that much to do with creativity. I do, however, take Michael Meyer's viewpoint that quintiles relate to special talents.
In the world of sports, success usually comes from being better, i.e. stronger, more accurate, more resilient, etc. There, innovation is generally mocked until it is proven to work better than the status quo. My favorite example of the most innovative athlete in the world of track and field is Dick Fosbury. Dick was a civil engineering major at Oregon State University who postulated that a reverse high jump would be a more efficient use of energy. His "Fosbury Flop" was mocked and ridiculed until he won the high jump in the 1968 NCAA Championships and won a gold medal in the 1968 Olympic Games.
Dick was born March 6, 1947 at 12:07 p.m. in Portland, Oregon with 7:58 Cancer rising. To me, it is noteworthy that Dick has no quintiles. At first glance, Dick appears to get his creative innovation from a Uranus under high developmental tension, having squares to Sun, Moon and Mercury. A semi-square to Saturn adds a little flavor of new versus old. Furthermore, Neptune is virtually peregrine, having the generational sextile to Pluto as its only major aspect. The midpoint picture of NE = SA/UR says a great deal--in Noel's words, "new vision fighting to be understood."
Don Borkowski
-
Hello Halina,
Perhaps, before we can discuss what constitutes "genius" astrologically, we should define what exactly we mean by the word genius.
(http://www.jamesalexander.de/Genius.png)
Depending on which of these we are considering, the Astrology is likely to be somewhat different.
I certainly wouldn't expect the genius of Isaac Newton to look the same astrologically as the "genius" of Elvis Presley. Jimi Hendrix did things on the guitar that were way ahead of their time, some of which still haven't been equaled. Does this make him more genius or more innovator???
If we start with the first given definition, "a person with exceptional ability, esp. of a highly original kind," then it looks like we are especially looking at Uranus and Neptune. A strong Uranus often gives uncommon intellect... a strong Neptune, often an uncommon imagination. Both could, to the "average" person, appear as genius. ;)
When *I* contemplate the idea of genius, it has more of an intellectual slant and less of a pure originality element. Because of this, when first contemplating this question, I was leaning towards a well-placed Jupiter or perhaps a strongly fortified 9th House. ...or, the best of both worlds, a well-placed Jupiter in a strong 9th House. ;)
Since I realize that originality and imagination often play into what people normally consider genius, I would add (to the Jupiter/9th elements from above) a well-integrated Uranus and beneficially placed Neptune into the mix.
Take care
James
-
Another definition of genius is "attention to something specific...[and] anyone who gives attention to any subject for a period of time will evolve in the direction of that understanding."
To me, this speaks strongly of Saturn...as in the saying, "Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration."
;D
-
Hmmm, this Saturn thing is getting interesting... :o
I just looked at 4 of chess' "geniuses"....Kasparov, Fischer, Capablanca, and Morphy...and in their Hindu astrology natal charts...
Kasparov has Saturn conjunct Ketu (South Node)...
Fischer has Saturn aspecting Ketu...
Capablanca has Saturn conjunct Rahu (North Node)...and thus opposite Ketu...and...
Morphy has Saturn conjunct Ketu...
This certainly makes sense given the definition of genius that I presented above, along with evolutionary astrology's emphasis on the Nodes, and the South Node in particular...more research on this needs to be done, of course...
;)
-
Also, you know what they say, that there is a fine line between mental illness and genius.
Looking for indications of m.i. in the chart might yield surprising results.
Stacy
-
The key part of the definition for genius is the "high originality", the 1% that James referred to. Viva la 1%! Saturn can work for a lifetime, giving it 99.99999 % and never get zapped with that Uranian spark of genius. It's MacGyver stuff. The unusual use of the hairpin….Uranus in contact with Mars….or in contact with Jupiter like in the charts of Einstein and Noel Tyl (and so many others)….or Uranus in contact with Mercury. It's always Uranus. That being said, genius can go unnoticed, or ungrounded, and as Stacy says, manifest merely as mental illness. I know a few people with Mercury-Uranus connections who zip right on past their own genius, never taking any notice….leaving others to steal it here and there.
Barbara Ybarra
-
Also, you know what they say, that there is a fine line between mental illness and genius.
Stacy
Yes, Stacy, I can agree with this. And I wonder where that "fine line" might be defined astrologically.
And here's an exercise for you all. Who is this famous genius?
Midpoints
Sorted by Orb
Modulus: 45 H8
Orb: 1 05'
Coordinate System: Ecliptic Longitude
Ura=Ven/Sat 0 01'S
Sat=Jup/NNo 0 02'A
Jup=Plu/Asc 0 05'S
Asc=Mar/Sat 0 06'A
Sun=Nep/MC 0 07'S
Jup=Sat/Nep 0 08'A
Sun=Mon/NNo 0 11'S
Plu=Mon/Ven 0 16'A
Jup=Mar/MC 0 20'A
Jup=Sun/Asc 0 21'A
Ura=Sat/NNo 0 23'A
Sat=Ven/Jup 0 26'S
Mon=Mar/Nep 0 26'A
Sat=Mon/MC 0 29'S
Mon=Jup/Nep 0 31'S
Asc=Ven/Nep 0 33'S
Plu=Jup/Nep 0 34'A
Sun=Mon/Ven 0 35'S
Mar=Ura/MC 0 35'S
Mer=Ven/Sat 0 35'S
Sat=Ura/Asc 0 38'S
Plu=Mon/NNo 0 39'A
Asc=Mer/Plu 0 41'S
Plu=Nep/MC 0 43'A
Mer=Mon/Sat 0 45'S
Asc=Mon/Nep 0 47'A
Asc=Jup/Sat 0 51'S
Sat=Ven/MC 0 51'A
Ven=Nep/MC 0 53'S
Mar=Mer/MC 0 53'S
Mar=Sun/NNo 0 55'A
Sat=Mer/Asc 0 56'S
Ven=Mon/NNo 0 56'S
Asc=Nep/NNo 0 57'S
Sat=Mar/NNo 0 59'S
Asc=Ura/Plu 0 59'S
Mer=Sat/NNo 0 59'S
-
Malcolm gladwell wrote a book in which he found that sports geniuses are generally born in the first half of the year. They are superior in size and strength and agility to their peers born in the second half of the year in school and receive more training and encouragement. Forgot the name of the book.
-
Hello James,
Re: Genius & "Kasparov has Saturn conjunct Ketu (South Node)..."
*I* have Saturn conjunct Ketu, that can't be it. ;)
On the other hand, I've won chess tournaments. ;)
I see Saturn and S.Node together as asceticism... What's the "standard" delineation for this combination in Vedic?
Take care
James
-
Hi James,
Yes, Saturn aspecting Ketu could indeed refer to asceticism, and perhaps in some--or many--ways, geniuses are truly ascetic (derived from the Greek, meaning exercise and training).
Ketu also signifies psychic ability, wisdom, knowledge, discrimination, etc., and when paired with Saturn's penchant for discipline, perseverance, responsibility, ambition, structure, form, perfection, etc., then here we have both the perspiration and inspiration...
:)
-
Paul Morphy suffered from mental illness after he voluntarily--and quite persistently--gave up playing chess... :o
He was born on June 22, 1837, in New Orleans, LA, time not known.
I'm wondering if he was born either around 5 AM or 1:30 PM?!
Perhaps Isaac or James A. could do a quick rectification with Polaris?!
-
what makes a genius - or a lucky man/woman.
bill gates born 28th oct 1955 seattle washington at 22.00 + 8.00
asc. 26deg.57 cancer
mc 26 deg 57 aries.
mar is in libra conj. mercury 3rd house.
all planets below horizon except the moon in the 9th conj. MC.
My brother born manchester UK 29th oct 1955 at 10.05 am
asc. 6deg sagg MC libra 6deg. conjunct mars
all planets conjunct same as bill gates. only the MC and asc different. also the moon 2 degrees different. he is a carpenter/joiner happily married with two daughters. so therefore i suggest the midheaven is of course the important area for luck in your career.
-
"There is no great genius without a mixture of madness. Aristotle.
" Genius is only great patience. Buffon, 1707-1788
"Men of genius do not excel in any profession because they labor in it, but they labor in it because they excel." WM. HAZZLITT, 1778
"Eccentricities of genius. CHARLES DICKENS
"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration." THOMAS ALVA EDISON, 1857-1931
"A man of genius makes no mistakes. His errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery." JAMES JOYCE, 1882-1941
"Solitude, the safeguard of mediocrity, is to genius the stern friend." RALPH WALDO EMMERSON, 1803-1882
-
Thanks for bringing this topic up Halina! Very interesting... :)
-
leoleo,
I don't see Bill Gates as a genius. He did not invent anything - made his money from the creativity of others.
water bird
-
Newton had his sun opposition Makemake.
Both Jobs and Gates had uranus conjunct Makemake.
Jim
-
According to Cornell for one to be a genius, Neptune & Uranus are usually strong at birth and in good aspect to Mercury, the mental ruler. The chart for conception should also be studied as Isaac Starkman does for the Epoch.
On the other hand, the genius is dull if the Pisces influence predominates at birth; Mercury afflicted in Pisces.
Ingenious, inventive, clever, skillful--of unusual mental ablility--constructive--original: The Sun conj Merc gives ingenuity; Sun in Virgo or Scorpio; the Moon in Gemini, Virgo, Scorpio or Aquarius; Moon conj Pluto and in good aspect to Mercury; the Moon angular at birth or in Taurus or Cancer; Moon in Aquarius; Uranus configured with Mercury; Uranus ascending at birth; Saturn in Gemini, Scorpio, Capricorn or Aquarius; Saturn sextile or trine Mercury; etc.
-
Halina,
I have not found Mercury in Pisces to be indicative of a 'dull mind'. Looking at Jupiter as the Ruler of Pisces this does appear to indicate a mind that can be very expansive and retentive.
bjorkstrand,
Makemake is a dwarf planet but I have not been able to locate the placement or meaning attached to it. Maybe you can post this please. BG has Uranus @ 2 Leo and sj has Uranus @ 24 Cancer conj Jupiter.
water bird
-
For placement of Makemake go to astro.com The number=136472.
Meaning
Well it's all about focusing on a problem. That takes time and to get the answer to a problem you have to love what you are doing and when you do love what you are doing, time is could be very long.
I have it squaring my moon but trining mercury. Focusing for me is bad news. I know what it's like to fail in high school.
Newton would spend hours and hours doing calculations. REally obsessive or what.
Oh ya Makemake is part of the hormone layer, 4th chakra, which deals with love.
Hope this helps
Jim
-
bjorkstrand,
Thank you for the post re MakeMake.
You possibly have heard of Dr Wang (?) - he believed the solution to a problem should be simple. If the solution he was working on proved too difficult he put it behind and sought an easier solution. Dr Wang was born in Shanghai China February 07, 1920 - sorry no birth time. He survived a civil war in his country and the Japanese invasion. He arrived in America when he was 25 and went on to gain a Ph.D. in applied psychics from Harvard within 3 years and invented a key element of computer memory - nothing seemed impossible to him.
water bird
-
waterbird
I got uranus rising aspecting lots of objects. The main idea is to get the idea. Genius implies esp sources, maybe a dream as in the krebs cycles or the idea just come into the brain from on high. I might get an idea after a run, because blood in really going thru the brain. It's really that simple. Some people got it some people don't. So if you've been thinking about a solution for months on end some day it just arrives out of the blue.
Jim
-
Below are the charts of 2 men with outstanding abilities. They are known by their nicknames: George Bidder, the famous "lightning calculator", was also a practical engineer and a man known as "Datas, the Human Encyclopedia", gave dates of all notable events in the history of the world that the audience would quiz him with.
Source: A Thousand And One Notable Nativities by Alan Leo. Look at their charts to see if Mercury receives aspects from Neptune and Uranas and other aspects that would make these men geniuses.
-
Adding the heliocentric positions to the geo chart in most cases will show us the extraordinary talents.
Dick Fosbury: his helio Mars in Aquarius is 120 Uranus (orb 68'), helio Mercury conjunct Moon and IC. If my rectification is correct (I have only 2 events for him) he was born 11.52.56 PST MC7PIS34' exactly 180 helio Mercury. In addition, helio Venus conjunct helio Jupiter in 5th.
-
Paul Morphy suffered from mental illness after he voluntarily--and quite persistently--gave up playing chess... :o
He was born on June 22, 1837, in New Orleans, LA, time not known.
I'm wondering if he was born either around 5 AM or 1:30 PM?!
Perhaps Isaac or James A. could do a quick rectification with Polaris?!
Luckily I have found a good timeline for him; I will try to rectify his chart.
-
Thank you Isaac, I see with the 1:30 PM time that he has helio Venus conjunct the MC?!
-
Check out Quaoar(50000)=eureka(I've got it). Einstein had it rising.
Jim
-
Using 15 events I rectified Morphy's chart to 11.38.14 LMT Asc 25Vir51'.
Helio Jupiter sextile MC, he has a strong Mercury in 9th square Mars and trine helio Mars. But helio Mercury conjunct Neptune in 5th, Mercury in 9th 120 Neptune- his tragic mental illness. Helio Mars, ruler of 8th, in opposition to Pluto.
This case remained me of another tragic genius: William James Sidis, born 1 April 1898, New York, rectified time 11.46.56 EST: here again helio Mercury conjunct Neptune.
-
Thank you again, Isaac! :)
-
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."....Einstein.
Imagination, one's imaginative faculty= Neptune, Moon, Mercury, (12th House) says Rex Bills. Total agreement with Isaac Starkman.
-
Isaac, does either the 5 AM or 1:30 PM approximate times show up as Polaris' number two or three option for Morphy?
-
Isaac, does either the 5 AM or 1:30 PM approximate times show up as Polaris' number two or three option for Morphy?
Not even +/- 1 hour, but your proposal for Libra or Gemini rising could be related to his epoch, casting for 24 Sep 1836 13.31.44 UT Asc 22Lib49' conjunct Mercury.
-
Thank you again, Isaac. I was wondering, since the 5 am time brings the Moon by SA to the MC when he was declared world champion in 1859, and similarly for the 1:30 PM time where the Sun partile conjuncts the MC by SA in 1859. And the Libra or Gemini Ascendant seemed to fit also...very interesting example... :)
-
PBS had a program on Henry ford the night--I am very aware of his story as I grew up in Detroit. Henry Ford was definitely A genius but like a genius, he was a bit weird. He had a "sociology department" at Ford motor that looked into the employees personal lives and they would be fired if anything unusual was found. When his grandson took over the company, this department was done away with.
I have only "dirty data" from Lois rodden: July 30, 1863, 2:22PM LMT, Greenfield (now Dearborn) Michigan 85W15 43N11 Late scoprio rising with virgo MC Note: he had only 1 child, Edsel, who died before hi and with whom he had a really difficult relationship to say the least. AMY
-
Hi Amy, My program Sirius version 1.3 gives Henry Ford born at 7:00am, from his autobiography, B data, Ascendant 0Virgo56(attention to detail). Try the MHEP on this chart and see if it makes sense or test it for Lunar Return at his death.