Noel Tyl

Astrology => Thursday's Vocational Exercises => Topic started by: ivanLeong on June 10, 2019, 10:04:31 AM

Title: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: ivanLeong on June 10, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Male:  August 4, 1982 at 21:38 PM ; China Zhaoqing Guangdong ,112:27E ,23:03N; Asc: 29Pis41

Time comes from birth certificate,

What do you think of Midheaven Extension Process?

I'll feedback.


Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 11, 2019, 08:03:37 AM
1.  Two quintiles plus Neptune tightly conjunct MC = creativity, creative self-expression, art, aesthetics, working with intangibles.

2.  MC ruler Jupiter conjunct both rulers of the 8th House of astrology/occult/rearranging things for others.

3.  Cancer North Node quindecile MC = nurturing others via interaction with them.

4.  Four planets in 7th House reinforces point number 3.

Helping others through astrology, tarot, i ching, runes, etc.
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: ivanLeong on June 16, 2019, 04:00:17 AM
Hi James, you're not entirely wrong, and there's one place where you're right. Answer I will announce after 3 MEPs

I think the exact  conjunct is a good illustration of his career.

If you are interested in Neptune, please explain whether it is music or painting or design.
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 16, 2019, 09:10:38 AM
Design...and all four points are consistent with the MHEP, so I am not "wrong" on any of the points.  And if you read Noel's book on vocations, it's not about guessing a person's vocation.  Leave that to the psychics and the fortune tellers...LOL...
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 16, 2019, 03:53:36 PM
In other words, the MHEP suggests that the owner of this chart would have a strong vocational need to nourish/nurture/help assist others via some "occult" profession, such as astrology...

However, this chart also strongly suggests that this owner may lack the confidence and/or motivation to do so, since Saturn in the 7th House of the chart is tightly square the ruler of the 7th House; that is, a reluctance to engage with others...and this would thus impact the desire to become a consulting astrologer...
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: ivanLeong on June 18, 2019, 01:15:07 AM
Hi James ,

So you think it's probably “The Helping / Healing Channel” in the book?

Rulership Dynamics,

MC ruler Jupiter~Mars both in8/7 ,8ruler Pluto~Satu(11/10)·~Venu(2,7), Orb 8.
Satu is strong &stell @7? Venu E conjunct NoNo

Didn't you consider The Administrative Channel?
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 18, 2019, 06:54:35 AM
You're very welcome, Ivan...
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: ivanLeong on June 18, 2019, 12:31:10 PM
At least one of your 4 points is wrong. Not four planets  in 7th, James

Strictly speaking, only saturn conjunct pluto are in 7th.

And Noel's book is about vocation analysis, although guessing vocation is not inappropriate.

Isn't it?
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 18, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
Jupiter is at 2 degrees 29 minutes, your 8th House cusp is 5 degrees 59 minutes...that's a total of 4 planets in the 7th House.

Noel, at least twice in his Vocations book, said that vocational analysis is not a guessing game.

Again, you're very welcome Ivan.
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 18, 2019, 06:27:06 PM

I think the exact  conjunct is a good illustration of his career.

There is no exact conjunct Ivan...  ;)
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: ivanLeong on June 19, 2019, 12:53:54 AM
5 degrees 59 minutes- 2 degrees 29 minutes= 3 degrees 30 minutes

Calculate the next house within the last four degrees

Noel thinks so, too.

James, 10th ruler Jupiter exact conjunct mars (orb<2°? ;)
Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: James Williams on June 19, 2019, 04:00:46 AM
Ivan, a 2 degree orb is not exact.  And please show where Noel says that the last 4 degrees of a house negates the influence of the house that a planet is in.

You know Ivan, the more I look at that exact Saturn-Venus square, the more I wonder if that that person lacks the confidence, motivation, initiative, and/or implementation to follow through with pursuing an interest in becoming an astrologer, tarot reader, i ching reader, or some other type of occult subject, if that indeed resonates with that person.

And if that is true, and if that person would like to become an astrologer, then I would suggest that that person hook up with Basil, as he is now taking over Noel's Master Course, for that person would greatly benefit from taking that course from Basil.

Alright Ivan, thanks for the exercise.  Over and out.

Title: Re: A critical point Voc Exs
Post by: Hudson Valley Astrologer on June 29, 2019, 04:51:28 AM

Here is my take. Thank you for the opportunity to exercise this important skill..

M.C. Sagittarius r Jupiter9-MC.Pluto8.Venus2-7.Moon5.Uranus12

International travel, higher learning, philosophy, publishing, concerning research people and money (values), teaching and technology.

MarsAsc, Jupiter9-MC, Saturn11, NeptuneAsc, Node: All make contact with the MC

Managing the distribution of knowledge, promoting a vision

Neptune (MC) q Node

Public image, Video, acting, preaching

Mercury3-4,7 q Moon5

Communication, partners, teacher


Technology, Invention, Innovation

Saturn q Asc

Business, Administration, Manager, Organizer,

Hard Stop!

This horoscope suggests a change manager, organizational development leader, working with people and organizations on transformational projects. Human Resource Development.


Venus is oriental but we do not recognize this position for analytical purposes due to the proximity of Venus to the Sun and the high frequency for anticipating Venus to be nearby the Sun. Therefore it is disqualified from the analysis as not adding any additional value as an oriental planet.

It is very difficult to not fall into the trap of analyzing the natal chart and to keep the MHEP clean. You asked what do you think of the MHEP? I think that that the MHEP is challenging but elegant in describing a person's pathway toward fulfillment. Of course the actual path taken by the client versus the path seen by the astrologer can vary tremendously. Still the value when the analysis lines up with the lived experience can be a powerful affirmation to the client that helps propel motivation and progress. But the process can also be so frustrating. It doesn't "work" sometimes in the sense that the lived experience is not reflective of the analytic pathway. The person is "off the track." This is most everyone in my humble opinion if we look at simple metrics like income and wealth distribution charts, or employment and other demographics. We live in a world where the material life matters a great deal, affecting our potential for experiencing our intellectual and spiritual sides of life and vice versa. Therefore, since the fulfillment of our lives is so dependent on what we do, that what we do IS who we are, then getting a good grip on the process is essential for a lot more than just getting the right job. (Most Critical Point IMHO) The MHEP in my experience works brilliantly when the planets align with clarity and coherence. The analysis spills out. No problems. When the light of the Sun and the extension of the Midheaven do not align well, when there are distribution problems with the energy throughout the rest of the horoscope, the MHEP approach doesn't alway match up with the lived experience. I don't think that the MHEP is wrong in these cases but rather other aspects emerge as more dominant, or get in the way of the client finding their way.

One of the "Critical Points" about Vocational examples I've worked with is how often they do in fact "hit" the mark. But many times they don't. And then I am forced to reevaluate my analysis, or look at the chart for potential blocks. Saturn square Venus can certainly present a challenge. James mentioned lack of confidence. This is true, AND I would add "quiet arrogance" that withdraws the intelligence into a narcissistic (this is a charged word and I do not use it in the colloquial sense) quagmire of defense. Expressing this aspect as an inner critic and judge of others, with a quiet superiority, traps the intelligence behind a wall of ideas and blocks or delays the intelligence from getting out into the world of action. All the while the DESIRE builds, complicating and compounding the complex. A lot of work and time will be required for the desire to mature into wisdom. Kindly, I speak from experience. This really hit home so to speak when a friend suggested "tongue in cheek" that I listen to the song "Your Own Private Idaho."

Keep off the path, beware of the gate
Watch out for signs that say "hidden driveways"
Don't let the chlorine in your eyes
Blind you to the awful surprise
That's been waitin' for you at
The bottom of the bottomless blue, blue, blue pool

How perfect? I considered that comment a gift that keeps giving and have never been more productive. Slowly getting "my stuff" out there. If we see a troublesome aspect, we can spot others that will need to be worked into a positive. When the ruler of the Ascendant is retrograde we anticipate identity confusion. This is so often the case, and although one aspect doesn't invalidate the MHEP, the picture blurries the more we add and with the Ascendant ruler retrograde I think it does complicate the analysis in that a confused identity will likely find it more difficult to get on track in the first place. The truth is that most people are confused about their identity. But some people have learned how to entrain with the expectation of society and culture more than others. The retrograde may in fact be an unconscious awareness of what Jung suggested, that more of the personality is in fact 'not the essential self' anyway, that most of who we think we are is an assemblage of the collective. This in my opinion is such a brilliant and fascinating observation from the perspective of natal analysis.

Slowly, I am getting more skilled in the MHEP approach and am always curious about a person accurately reflecting their chart in this way, or not. So much can go awry. The wrong birth time (whether or not we have the birth certificate in hand), a disruptive and unsupportive home environment, poor health, poor relationships, a lost developmental period to drugs and alcohol, or an interrupted education. But even in all these situations more often than not the clients gets a "sparkle" in their eye when I get to the "hard stop." They recognize something, a path they are on, or could have taken. A Way! A Goal for fulfillment. There is hope!

The MHEP in a word is an extraordinary delineation of purpose and potential.

All the best,