Author Topic: Prince Philip Montbatten  (Read 2080 times)

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2020, 10:10:08 AM »
Hello Pam/Forum:

From my experience & observations:

Cancer-Capricorn on the horizon – there is a status difference between the partners or a significant age/maturity imbalance. The conflict is over “Who’s the Boss?”

Leo-Aquarius on the horizon – there is a recognition/ego difference between the partners that must be balanced to achieve equality. The conflict is over “Who Loves More?”

I don’t see Philip possessing those ego conflicts. He doesn’t compete with the Queen for attention. He doesn’t seek to outshine her in any way.

The challenge for them has always been for a suitable role for him to fulfill and the status that goes with it.

So, she reigns (over the nation) and he rules (over the family) as patriarch. She defers to him on all domestic matters; he serves her dutifully in her constitutional role as Monarch. He had to give up his career in the Navy but was allowed to have his family name Mountbatten affixed to Windsor.

Now, Philip has a Leo Moon regardless of the correct time and it’s obvious to see…proud, magnanimous, charismatic, dynamic. Also, the easy ways and irreverent naughtiness he possesses can be seen in the Cap ASC chart by, ruler Saturn, conjunct Jupiter and opposite Uranus. He’s delightful to be sure and can stretch the boundaries when necessary. Nobody thinks he’s dour.

However, I wouldn’t call him an anti-traditionalist. If he was he’d have more respect for Diana, Fergie, and Harry, all of whom disappointed him precisely because they could not live by the rules that Philip himself enforced.

One last point…if Philip has a Leo Moon conjunct a Leo ASC this reads to me as a pronounced neediness requiring expression, demanding self-serving fulfillment in an unbalanced, even narcissistic manner. This quite frankly describes Charles, who has Leo ASC square Moon.

Examples: Wherever Charles travels he brings his own bed from home. As a guest, he never eats what other’s serve but carries along his own organic food from Highgrove which his hosts have to prepare to his exacting specifications…’my needs, my sensitivities, my food, my way’.

I dare say none of that reflects the true Philip who is essentially a giver (West) rather than a taker (East).

Regards,
Dean

Hi Dean and forum,

Well, we seem to have come to an impasse; Dean, I just don't see it the way you do.  For example, you said of Prince Philip: 'the easy ways and irreverent naughtiness he possesses can be seen in the Cap ASC chart by, ruler Saturn, conjunct Jupiter and opposite Uranus.  He's delightful to be sure and can stretch the boundaries when necessary.  Nobody thinks he's dour.'  I would not have seen that configuration that way, myself.  With Saturn being his ruling planet, I should think it would tend to squelch both Jupiter and Uranus; Jupiter conjunct Saturn would tend to indicate great material success, especially in the 8th house (money from others), and opposing Uranus in the 2nd (earned income; security; stability) it would come about in an unusual way (not many people achieve material success by marrying royalty).  And his father would be very important to him, which he was.

With Jupiter preceding Saturn any positive expansion he achieved would run into difficulty, getting in the way of his dreams, e.g., he achieved material security and stability by marrying Elizabeth, and was happy in his marriage and his naval career thereafter for a while; but then his wife's father, the King, died unexpectedly young, causing Elizabeth to become Queen, and Philip's world was upended - he had to give up his naval career and become his wife's 'liege lord,' forever doomed to walk behind her and support her, having no real position of his own.  For an alpha male like Philip, this was incredibly difficult, not to say soul-destroying.

 This conjunction would be in effect no matter what time he was born, but it seems to me it would be worse with Capricorn rising, because of Saturn being the chart ruler, and tending to put a damper on everything.  I just don't think the sunny personality he definitely does have shows in the Capricorn rising chart.  I'll grant you, Sue Tompkins says of the Jupiter-Saturn person in her book 'Aspects in Astrology':

 ... they may ... present a face of excessive jollity, exuberance and confidence .... [Destiny Books, 1989, 2001, 2002, page 229]

But I don't think that applies to Philip; I think he's just a naturally sunny, self-confident person who tends to see the positive in life.  To me, that's reflected more in the Leo rising chart - a lot more.

You said that you wouldn't call him an anti-traditionalist; well, I would.  I'm going by his having gone to boarding school at Gordonstoun in Scotland, where the curriculum laid down by the headmaster, Kurt Hahn, emphasized social equality, and having people from all different social backgrounds mix on an equal level; this experience laid the foundation for Philip's later world view.  He said, as an adult, that he probably leaned more towards a socialist society, politically; of course, that's easy to say when you're leading the life of a duke, but he did believe in those socialist ideals of a society of equals. 

As for modernizing things, he turned Buckingham Palace upside down when he and Elizabeth moved in.  If you'll forgive a rather long quotation:

At the time of the coronation ...the monarchy was still revered enough that even those who served it were considered untouchable.  The only voice of dissent being heard came from within the Palace walls, and that was the irascible growl of the Queen's husband, who was appalled by the inefficiency he found all around him.

Pronouncing his wife's courtiers "creaky" and their administration of Buckingham Palace "medieval," Prince Philip scorched most of the 230 servants as "goddamned idiots who wait on each other - not on us."  Insisting on naval efficiency, he regarded the 690-room Palace as a leaky old rust-bucket that he had to make seaworthy.  Beginning with the footmen, he said the practice of "powdering" their hair with a messy mixture of soap, water, flour, and starch was "old-fashioned and unmanly."  He stopped it.  He pronounced the Palace communications system "hopelessly antiquated" and instituted a system to get rid of the "bloody pages running all over the place."  He ordered a modern intercom installed so that with a flick of a switch the Queen could contact him, her secretaries, the children's nannies, even her chef.  Next, the gadget-minded Duke ordered intercoms put in every office and two-way radios put in all royal cars.  He introduced Dictaphones, tape recorders, and automated filing systems.  He had washing machines installed in the Palace basement to replace the platoon of laundresses scrubbing overtime on washboards.  He ended the Palace system of running several dining rooms at full steam all day long just so the servants could eat.  He commissioned small pantries with hot plates and refrigerators to be installed in the royal suites so servants would not have to walk three miles of corridors just to take the Queen her coffee every morning.  He did away with placing a fresh bottle of Scotch by the monarch's bed, a quaint practice that had been going on since 1910 when Edward VII asked for a whiskey to counteract a cold.  No one had ever cancelled the order. .................

For the hidebound courtiers, who preferred having young pages in silk breeches run messages by foot, as they had done in the days of Queen Victoria, Philip was radically disruptive.  They protested his time-motion studies of the staff and objected to his heliport behind the Palace to save commuting time.  They opposed his plan for marketing surplus peas from the farmlands at Sandringham and sneered when he installed bread slicers and carrot-washing machines.  They objected when he ordered that Queen Victoria's orangerie at Windsor Castle be converted into a heated swimming pool.  They especially disapproved of his mingling with the masses and said he didn't distinguish between commoners and aristocrats.  They cringed when he entertained labor leaders and shuddered when he invited movie stars to lunch with the Queen.  Allowing film stars into Buckingham Palace was worse than permitting untouchables into a shrine.  ............

"That man is no gentleman," said Commander Sir Richard Colville, the Queen's press secretary, fuming.  "And he has no friends who are gentlemen."  For a courtier whose honour was invested in being considered a gentleman, this was a debasing insult, but the swipe was passed privately.  As so-called gentlemen, the courtiers were careful to be correct in public because they could not afford to be openly hostile to the Queen's husband.  On the surface they acted civilized, and in his presence they addressed him respectfully.  Behind his back they savaged him.  Philip, who cared little about being defined as a gentleman, barged ahead with his sweeping innovations.
. [From Kitty Kelley's book 'The Royals,' Warner Books, 1997, pages 127-129]

So ... anti-traditionalist?  A modernizer?  I think so.  And I don't see it in the Cap rising chart; I think if Philip had the Cap rising chart he would care very much about being considered a gentleman.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree for now, Dean.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:16:44 PM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2020, 10:52:29 AM »
Hi everyone,

I have not followed this thread or read it yet. But found the subject interesting and did a snapshot study of the capricorn ascendant,
for Prince Philip.

Just some instant sharing of two interesting features....


***  His vedic chart have Mercury in his 7th house of partner.  Mercury is ruling his vedic 10th house of rulers.

*** 7th house Mercury is conjunct the bright fixed star *Sirius that gives honours which could reflect his spouse.
Interstingly enough is that this fixed star is said to be related to "dogbites".
As I have watched the good qualtity series "The Crown" on netflix, I know that the Queen is a lifelong doglover. Doing a quick google on
the searchword "dogbites" this came up:


"Her Majesty was reportedly badly injured in a dog fight almost 20 years ago. The report reads: “She was bitten when eight of her corgis got into a scrap with two of the Queen Mother's pets in the grounds of Windsor Castle. "She received a severe cut to her hand which needed three stitches"

Mercury is related to hands.

Transiting Uranus was opposite mercury in the "dog star" Sirius:
"




In mythology the dog Sirius is one of the watchmen of the Heavens, fixed in one place at the bridge of the Milky Way, keeping guard over the abyss into incarnation. Its namesake the Dog Star is a symbol of power, will and steadfastness of purpose


*** In declination the ASC is contraparallel to Sun. This is the same as having the descendent conjunct sun. Which could fit well.

Hi Atma,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  I'm not well versed in Vedic astrology but I did dig out my copy of James Braha's book, 'Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer,' [Hermetician Press, 1986] and using it I had a look at the charts for both of the suggested birth times.  I can see why you like the 9:46 p.m. chart; it definitely has some points in its favour.  But one thing that I should think would disqualify it is the fact that the Vedic Ascendant is Sagittarius, with ruler Jupiter in Leo in the 9th house; Braha's book says this would indicate that the man would get gains from his father, and receive paternal property [page 81] - this was decidedly not the case.  While Prince Philip and his father had a good relationship during their time living together, his father basically abandoned the family when Philip was ten, leaving him and the rest of the family literally penniless, and dependent on relatives for support.  Moreover, when Philip was an infant his very life was in danger, as were the lives of everyone else in his family, because of who his father was; they narrowly escaped from Greece with their lives and just the clothes on their backs.  Years later, when his father died, Philip was given his father's effects, which consisted of an ivory shaving brush, a gold signet ring, and a few threadbare old suits - that was all he inherited from his father.
 
When we look at the Vedic chart for the 10 a.m. birth time, we see Cancer rising, with ruler the Moon also in Cancer, its own sign, in the 1st house.  Braha says of this position: '...the person will be very good-looking...He will be highly passionate and romantic. ... He will be very sociable.  ...' [page 83].  Capricorn is on the cusp of the 7th house, thus marriage is ruled by Saturn, which is in Leo in the 2nd house;  Braha says: 'Gets wealth through spouse, spouse has good earning ability, good speaker, imaginative, intelligent and knowledgeable spouse ...' [page 143]

So to me, while both Vedic charts have their positive points, I would have thought the one for the 10 a.m. time described his life more accurately.  Of course, I'm not an expert in Vedic, so maybe I'm missing something.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 10:56:43 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Halina

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2020, 11:47:49 AM »
Hi all, nice thread.    I'm choosing the 10 am birthtime which gives a prenatal chart with 9 Scorpio rising.   Here's what Sepharial says about 9 Scorpio rising
which really describes Phil's early life.....
     9 Scorpio..."This symbol is indicative of a childhood spent in adverse circumstances;  and of a nature that may be in danger of degeneration through
neglect in the early stages of its growth.    Bereft of parents and guardians at an early age, the nature is doomed to self-assertion and effort, or else to
desolation & despair.  Obscure in origin, and reared among strangers, the nature is yet capable of attaining to considerable distinction.   It is a  degree of
ORPHANAGE."  SEPHARIAL
       Now notice how 9 Scorpio accurately describes his early life biography.....", his mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia and placed in an asylum, and his father took up residence in Monte Carlo.  Philip had little contact with his mother for the remainder of his childhood.   In 1933, he was sent to Schule Schloss Salem in Germany, which had the "advantage of saving school fees" because it was owned by the family of his brother-in-law, Berthold, Margrave of Baden.  With the rise of Nazism in Germany, Salem's Jewish founder, Kurt Hahn, fled persecution and founded Gordonstoun School in Scotland, to which Philip moved after two terms at Salem.   In 1937, his sister Cecilie, her husband Georg Donatus, Hereditary Grand Duke of Hesse, her two young sons, Ludwig and Alexander, her newborn infant, and her mother-in-law, Princess Eleonore of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, were killed in an air crash at Ostend; Philip, then 16 years old, attended the funeral in Darmstadt.   The following year, his uncle and guardian Lord Milford Haven died of bone marrow cancer."
       Philip's 10am birthtime produced an accurate prenatal chart with 9 Scorpio rising which accurately describes his early life.     Phil's natal 10AM chart
with 18Le39 rising gives his prenatal chart with 9 Scopio rising.....OBVIOUSLY THE PRENATAL CHART IS MORE DESCRIPTIVE OF HIS LIFE THEREFOR VALIDATING
HIS 10am BIRTHCHART.
       Sepharial on 17Leo MH...."It denotes one who will be noted for his wide & prolonged travels....one who will leave home (Greece) & become a prominent
figure in a foreign country (England).  The character is stubborn, perservering, very vindictive and revengeful; not ungrateful but never forgetting injuries.
....somewhat fond of parade & self-advertisement, and in the end will be very successful in life.   It is a degree of JOURNEYING."
       I am verifying the 10 am, Leo rising chart by showing how Phil's prenatal chart corresponds not only to his early life, but accurately describes  his marriage to Elizabeth.   The marriage chart is below in a biwheel with his prenatal Scorpio rising chart.
       
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:05:17 PM by Halina »

Offline amymaddalozzo

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2020, 01:06:37 PM »
I hate to say this but who is going to die first?   The queen or Prince Phillip?   The queen's sun will be negatively aspected by transiting saturn late this year and mars next year-but they are both old, let's face it   So take a good guess   AMY

Offline Atma

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2020, 01:38:12 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have not followed this thread or read it yet. But found the subject interesting and did a snapshot study of the capricorn ascendant,
for Prince Philip.

Just some instant sharing of two interesting features....


***  His vedic chart have Mercury in his 7th house of partner.  Mercury is ruling his vedic 10th house of rulers.

*** 7th house Mercury is conjunct the bright fixed star *Sirius that gives honours which could reflect his spouse.
Interstingly enough is that this fixed star is said to be related to "dogbites".
As I have watched the good qualtity series "The Crown" on netflix, I know that the Queen is a lifelong doglover. Doing a quick google on
the searchword "dogbites" this came up:


"Her Majesty was reportedly badly injured in a dog fight almost 20 years ago. The report reads: “She was bitten when eight of her corgis got into a scrap with two of the Queen Mother's pets in the grounds of Windsor Castle. "She received a severe cut to her hand which needed three stitches"

Mercury is related to hands.

Transiting Uranus was opposite mercury in the "dog star" Sirius:
"




In mythology the dog Sirius is one of the watchmen of the Heavens, fixed in one place at the bridge of the Milky Way, keeping guard over the abyss into incarnation. Its namesake the Dog Star is a symbol of power, will and steadfastness of purpose


*** In declination the ASC is contraparallel to Sun. This is the same as having the descendent conjunct sun. Which could fit well.

Hi Atma,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  I'm not well versed in Vedic astrology but I did dig out my copy of James Braha's book, 'Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer,' [Hermetician Press, 1986] and using it I had a look at the charts for both of the suggested birth times.  I can see why you like the 9:46 p.m. chart; it definitely has some points in its favour.  But one thing that I should think would disqualify it is the fact that the Vedic Ascendant is Sagittarius, with ruler Jupiter in Leo in the 9th house; Braha's book says this would indicate that the man would get gains from his father, and receive paternal property [page 81] - this was decidedly not the case.  While Prince Philip and his father had a good relationship during their time living together, his father basically abandoned the family when Philip was ten, leaving him and the rest of the family literally penniless, and dependent on relatives for support.  Moreover, when Philip was an infant his very life was in danger, as were the lives of everyone else in his family, because of who his father was; they narrowly escaped from Greece with their lives and just the clothes on their backs.  Years later, when his father died, Philip was given his father's effects, which consisted of an ivory shaving brush, a gold signet ring, and a few threadbare old suits - that was all he inherited from his father.
 
When we look at the Vedic chart for the 10 a.m. birth time, we see Cancer rising, with ruler the Moon also in Cancer, its own sign, in the 1st house.  Braha says of this position: '...the person will be very good-looking...He will be highly passionate and romantic. ... He will be very sociable.  ...' [page 83].  Capricorn is on the cusp of the 7th house, thus marriage is ruled by Saturn, which is in Leo in the 2nd house;  Braha says: 'Gets wealth through spouse, spouse has good earning ability, good speaker, imaginative, intelligent and knowledgeable spouse ...' [page 143]

So to me, while both Vedic charts have their positive points, I would have thought the one for the 10 a.m. time described his life more accurately.  Of course, I'm not an expert in Vedic, so maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks for your thoughts Pamela. It is often not clearcut to discern which chart is the right one. And I have just gotten into this one. But a snapshot look at the marriage date to the Queen, which I guess is perhaps the most significant event in his life.

 with the capricorn rising western chart ( and sag rising vedic chart) the actual marriage took place in 20 nov 1947.
 In the vedic dasha system of planetary periods marriage date was in the subperiod of Mercury the 10th lord in the 7th house
....which was actually the actual planet discussed in my first post. That Mercury on the star * Sirius in the 7th house of spouse.
And as ruler of the 10th it reflects his "job" as the partner of the Queen.

This confirmation is not a whole study of course...but at least quite good start, and argument for the cap rising chart ! 




« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:41:09 PM by Atma »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2020, 05:18:52 PM »
Hi all, nice thread.    I'm choosing the 10 am birthtime which gives a prenatal chart with 9 Scorpio rising.   Here's what Sepharial says about 9 Scorpio rising
which really describes Phil's early life.....
     9 Scorpio..."This symbol is indicative of a childhood spent in adverse circumstances;  and of a nature that may be in danger of degeneration through
neglect in the early stages of its growth.    Bereft of parents and guardians at an early age, the nature is doomed to self-assertion and effort, or else to
desolation & despair.  Obscure in origin, and reared among strangers, the nature is yet capable of attaining to considerable distinction.   It is a  degree of
ORPHANAGE."  SEPHARIAL
       Now notice how 9 Scorpio accurately describes his early life biography.....", his mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia and placed in an asylum, and his father took up residence in Monte Carlo.  Philip had little contact with his mother for the remainder of his childhood.   In 1933, he was sent to Schule Schloss Salem in Germany, which had the "advantage of saving school fees" because it was owned by the family of his brother-in-law, Berthold, Margrave of Baden.  With the rise of Nazism in Germany, Salem's Jewish founder, Kurt Hahn, fled persecution and founded Gordonstoun School in Scotland, to which Philip moved after two terms at Salem.   In 1937, his sister Cecilie, her husband Georg Donatus, Hereditary Grand Duke of Hesse, her two young sons, Ludwig and Alexander, her newborn infant, and her mother-in-law, Princess Eleonore of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, were killed in an air crash at Ostend; Philip, then 16 years old, attended the funeral in Darmstadt.   The following year, his uncle and guardian Lord Milford Haven died of bone marrow cancer."
       Philip's 10am birthtime produced an accurate prenatal chart with 9 Scorpio rising which accurately describes his early life.     Phil's natal 10AM chart
with 18Le39 rising gives his prenatal chart with 9 Scopio rising.....OBVIOUSLY THE PRENATAL CHART IS MORE DESCRIPTIVE OF HIS LIFE THEREFOR VALIDATING
HIS 10am BIRTHCHART.
       Sepharial on 17Leo MH...."It denotes one who will be noted for his wide & prolonged travels....one who will leave home (Greece) & become a prominent
figure in a foreign country (England).  The character is stubborn, perservering, very vindictive and revengeful; not ungrateful but never forgetting injuries.
....somewhat fond of parade & self-advertisement, and in the end will be very successful in life.   It is a degree of JOURNEYING."
       I am verifying the 10 am, Leo rising chart by showing how Phil's prenatal chart corresponds not only to his early life, but accurately describes  his marriage to Elizabeth.   The marriage chart is below in a biwheel with his prenatal Scorpio rising chart.
     

Thanks for this info, Halina; nice to have some backup.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2020, 05:22:07 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have not followed this thread or read it yet. But found the subject interesting and did a snapshot study of the capricorn ascendant,
for Prince Philip.

Just some instant sharing of two interesting features....


***  His vedic chart have Mercury in his 7th house of partner.  Mercury is ruling his vedic 10th house of rulers.

*** 7th house Mercury is conjunct the bright fixed star *Sirius that gives honours which could reflect his spouse.
Interstingly enough is that this fixed star is said to be related to "dogbites".
As I have watched the good qualtity series "The Crown" on netflix, I know that the Queen is a lifelong doglover. Doing a quick google on
the searchword "dogbites" this came up:


"Her Majesty was reportedly badly injured in a dog fight almost 20 years ago. The report reads: “She was bitten when eight of her corgis got into a scrap with two of the Queen Mother's pets in the grounds of Windsor Castle. "She received a severe cut to her hand which needed three stitches"

Mercury is related to hands.

Transiting Uranus was opposite mercury in the "dog star" Sirius:
"




In mythology the dog Sirius is one of the watchmen of the Heavens, fixed in one place at the bridge of the Milky Way, keeping guard over the abyss into incarnation. Its namesake the Dog Star is a symbol of power, will and steadfastness of purpose


*** In declination the ASC is contraparallel to Sun. This is the same as having the descendent conjunct sun. Which could fit well.

Hi Atma,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  I'm not well versed in Vedic astrology but I did dig out my copy of James Braha's book, 'Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer,' [Hermetician Press, 1986] and using it I had a look at the charts for both of the suggested birth times.  I can see why you like the 9:46 p.m. chart; it definitely has some points in its favour.  But one thing that I should think would disqualify it is the fact that the Vedic Ascendant is Sagittarius, with ruler Jupiter in Leo in the 9th house; Braha's book says this would indicate that the man would get gains from his father, and receive paternal property [page 81] - this was decidedly not the case.  While Prince Philip and his father had a good relationship during their time living together, his father basically abandoned the family when Philip was ten, leaving him and the rest of the family literally penniless, and dependent on relatives for support.  Moreover, when Philip was an infant his very life was in danger, as were the lives of everyone else in his family, because of who his father was; they narrowly escaped from Greece with their lives and just the clothes on their backs.  Years later, when his father died, Philip was given his father's effects, which consisted of an ivory shaving brush, a gold signet ring, and a few threadbare old suits - that was all he inherited from his father.
 
When we look at the Vedic chart for the 10 a.m. birth time, we see Cancer rising, with ruler the Moon also in Cancer, its own sign, in the 1st house.  Braha says of this position: '...the person will be very good-looking...He will be highly passionate and romantic. ... He will be very sociable.  ...' [page 83].  Capricorn is on the cusp of the 7th house, thus marriage is ruled by Saturn, which is in Leo in the 2nd house;  Braha says: 'Gets wealth through spouse, spouse has good earning ability, good speaker, imaginative, intelligent and knowledgeable spouse ...' [page 143]

So to me, while both Vedic charts have their positive points, I would have thought the one for the 10 a.m. time described his life more accurately.  Of course, I'm not an expert in Vedic, so maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks for your thoughts Pamela. It is often not clearcut to discern which chart is the right one. And I have just gotten into this one. But a snapshot look at the marriage date to the Queen, which I guess is perhaps the most significant event in his life.

 with the capricorn rising western chart ( and sag rising vedic chart) the actual marriage took place in 20 nov 1947.
 In the vedic dasha system of planetary periods marriage date was in the subperiod of Mercury the 10th lord in the 7th house
....which was actually the actual planet discussed in my first post. That Mercury on the star * Sirius in the 7th house of spouse.
And as ruler of the 10th it reflects his "job" as the partner of the Queen.

This confirmation is not a whole study of course...but at least quite good start, and argument for the cap rising chart !

Fair enough, Atma.  Perhaps you could take a look at Philip's Vedic chart for the 10 a.m. time and let us know what it shows?  And how can you account for what the Vedic chart for 9:46 p.m. says about Philip's father?

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2020, 05:37:49 PM »
I hate to say this but who is going to die first?   The queen or Prince Phillip?   The queen's sun will be negatively aspected by transiting saturn late this year and mars next year-but they are both old, let's face it   So take a good guess   AMY

Hi Amy,

This question is not something I like to speculate on, at least not in a public forum.  Probably eventually it will be made clear which of the two posited charts for Philip is correct by the transits, progs and directions in force at his passing, as will be the case for us all. 


Offline Dean B

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2020, 10:08:25 PM »
Hello Pam/Forum...a few more thoughts:

If Philip cannot be Cap ASC because he’s ‘anti-establishment’ and ‘informal’ then how do we explain Prince Harry, also Cap ASC?

I’m perplexed that the Leo ASC chart doesn’t ‘ring louder bells’ to describe the VIP that is QE2.

  • Uranus ruling DSC, opposite Jupiter-Saturn across 2-8, with contacts to the MC by sextile and trine, respectively. It’s something, I guess, but underwhelming. The Cap ASC chart is more dynamic with regards to identifying her prominence and his service to his wife in her role.

As an example of this, look at Prince Albert’s chart, and you clearly see Queen Victoria’s power via his DSC and MC.

Next, consider these events with the Cap ASC chart:

1) King George VI dies making Elizabeth queen immediately (1952)…Tr. Uranus on DSC.

2) The Silver Jubilee fever all across Britain (1977) to mark Queen's 25 years on the Throne; whirlwind Commonwealth tour by QE2 and Philip…Tr. Uranus on MC.

3) The infamous Annus Horribilis (1992)…Tr. Uranus on ASC.

4) Last 10 months (2020)…family unpredictability precipitated by Andrew scandal and Harry/Meghan departure; domestic arrangements affected by Covid; Charles gets the virus; Beatrice wedding date changed…Tr. Uranus on IC.

Tomorrow, I’ll relocate both charts from Corfu to London and see if anything stands out.

Regards,
Dean
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 01:40:48 AM by Dean B »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2020, 05:44:17 AM »
If Philip cannot be Cap ASC because he’s ‘anti-establishment’ and ‘informal’ then how do we explain Prince Harry, also Cap ASC?

Now, Dean, I never said that; YOU said you didn't find him to be an anti-tradionalist, and I gave examples that showed why I think he is.  I'm certainly not saying that one can't have a Cap ASC and still be informal and perhaps even anti-establishment; I just don't think that Philip is such a case.  I think, ON BALANCE, Philip is better described by the Leo ASC chart. 

I do think relocating his chart from Corfu to London is a good idea; I'll be interested to see what that shows.  Meanwhile, I'm going to have a look at the transits to his chart(s) for some other important events in his life, besides the ones you mentioned.

Offline Dean B

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2020, 12:28:51 PM »
Hello Pam:

I get the impression that you point out Philip’s tech savvy and progressive attitudes, in itself, as supportive of Leo (ASC)-Aquarius (DSC).

I should note where Philip’s love of science/technology really comes from…the classic signature of Mercury-Mars-Uranus contacts.

Philip has Mars (in Gemini) disposited by Mercury trine Uranus. It is said that his desk looks like the cockpit of a jet plane, loaded with gadgetry. He could’ve been an engineer.

In the Cap ASC chart, the focus of this ‘obsession’ is the 6th with Mercury (r. 6), Mars (in 6), Pluto (in 6, r. MC) trine Uranus.

The 6th is the workplace and the workers themselves.

No wonder he is obsessed with the efficiencies of palace life as a working home and a progressive attitude towards the servants who labor there.

Also, given that Mercury (trine Uranus) is on the DSC, it should not be a surprise that he can talk to all types of other people regardless of class or status…and that sometimes he puts his foot in his mouth with the faux pas (Mercury conjunct Pluto on the DSC).

None of this is negated simply because of a Cap ASC.

Plus, with MC rulers, Mars and Pluto in 6…military service career.

His whole life has been one of service – military and consort to Queen. One doesn’t work until the age of 96 if work/service is not of paramount importance. Astonishingly, the Leo ASC chart has an empty 6th.

Regards,
Dean
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 12:44:02 PM by Dean B »

Offline Steven7

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2020, 01:43:53 PM »
Just one more thing " as Colombo would say.

 Based on the Astrodienst chart for 9:46 PM  June 10, 1921


13 Cap asc   has  Phil with MC  10th house water sign Scorpio, he served
as a naval office, 10th house career.
Saturn ruling planet in Virgo 9th house, auspicious house.
 Saturn at the time of marriage  was arced into Libra , Saturn 's exaltation sign.
 Juno  spouse indicator  is at 10 Cap, wife has Cap asc.
 Juno 10 cap trines  fortunate Jupiter 10 Virgo in the fortunate 9th house.
Jupiter owns the 9th  so gets extra strength there.

  The cherry on top

The Part of Fortune 10 Scorpio sits at  the Juno Jupiter midpoint
     The nodes on the 25s made quindecile interaction with Juno, PoF and Jupiter.
  He married the heir to the throne who is if not the wealthy person in the world certainly controls  massive wealth and nations.
 A rare union.
 Game of thrones been very good for Philip.

The Leo chart has PoF at  14-45 Libra

Sept 17 2020 New Moon   25 Virgo will bounce off  his nodes ,Jupiter, Eris and  Juno.
 plus Pof in the Cap and  the 10 Taurus  MC in his Leo chart.

Differences in charts are houses asc MC and Pof and Vertex.

Either Ascendant looks triggering  for him.

Offline Dean B

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2020, 02:53:04 PM »
Hello Forum:

I was curious to see when Philip’s natal Jupiter-Uranus opposition would solar arc to the MC-IC.

Would we see a grand, large reward (Jupiter) or an exciting, attention-generating popular event (Uranus)?

Would it reflect something in the family (IC) or be a career/state milestone (MC)?

Well, knock my socks off…all of the above!

Behold Philip’s solar arcs on July 29, 1981…The Charles-Diana wedding…the grandest event since The Coronation.

SA Jupiter at 8-Scorpio; SA Uranus at 7-Taurus...smack on the Cap ASC's MC-IC axis.

With the Leo ASC chart this opposition would arc to MC-IC three years later (1984). However, If Leo ASC birth time were 10 minutes earlier at 9:50 AM it would hit exactly but in reverse...SA Jup on IC; SA Ura on MC.

See attachment.

Dean
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 03:14:02 PM by Dean B »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2020, 04:33:23 PM »
Hello Pam:

I get the impression that you point out Philip’s tech savvy and progressive attitudes, in itself, as supportive of Leo (ASC)-Aquarius (DSC).

I should note where Philip’s love of science/technology really comes from…the classic signature of Mercury-Mars-Uranus contacts.

Philip has Mars (in Gemini) disposited by Mercury trine Uranus. It is said that his desk looks like the cockpit of a jet plane, loaded with gadgetry. He could’ve been an engineer.

In the Cap ASC chart, the focus of this ‘obsession’ is the 6th with Mercury (r. 6), Mars (in 6), Pluto (in 6, r. MC) trine Uranus.

The 6th is the workplace and the workers themselves.

No wonder he is obsessed with the efficiencies of palace life as a working home and a progressive attitude towards the servants who labor there.

Also, given that Mercury (trine Uranus) is on the DSC, it should not be a surprise that he can talk to all types of other people regardless of class or status…and that sometimes he puts his foot in his mouth with the faux pas (Mercury conjunct Pluto on the DSC).

None of this is negated simply because of a Cap ASC.

Plus, with MC rulers, Mars and Pluto in 6…military service career.

His whole life has been one of service – military and consort to Queen. One doesn’t work until the age of 96 if work/service is not of paramount importance. Astonishingly, the Leo ASC chart has an empty 6th.

Regards,
Dean

Hi Dean,

With regard to your comment that you have the impression that I 'point out Philip's tech savvy and progressive attitudes, in itself, as supportive of Leo (ASC) - Aquarius (DSC)': not at all.  I do feel the Aquarius Descendant contributes to his progressive attitudes, but I would think the main thing contributing to that in the Leo rising chart is his Sun in the 11th house.  The 11th house correlates with the sign Aquarius in the natural zodiac, thus there's a double whammy here.  Many, many people who have Sun in the 11th are very focused on the things one would consequently expect: equality, improving society, etc.  They look to the future, and to making it better for as many people as possible.  They want to make the world a better place.  Sounds like Aquarius, doesn't it?  These are cliches, obviously, but you get the picture; cliches become cliches because they tend to be accurate most of the time. 

Philip's gadget-craziness I would put down simply to his having his Sun and Mars in Gemini; dispositor Mercury is with them in the 11th, and the latter trining Uranus. 

Dean ... I greatly admire and respect your astrological expertise, and I'm not very comfortable in this present situation, finding myself opposing your views!  But I'm just going by what I see when I look at the two charts.  As Steven said a while back, there can only be one Ascendant.  And the two that have been proposed are separated from each other by many hours, resulting in two charts that are very different from each other.  We're talking about two quite different individuals here!  It should be possible to see which one is Philip; he is, after all, pretty well known.

He is known to be an affable, friendly, hail-fellow-well-met type of guy, very self-confident, quite assertive, a leader type - the latter long before he married the Queen.  He has been described as being, in his younger days, loads of fun and someone you were always glad to see.  He does tend to speak before he thinks, sometimes resulting in embarrassing situations, and he can be very quick-tempered, and could be said to have behaved badly in public sometimes.  But we all have bad moments, and bad days; the difference in Philip's case is that there is usually a photographer around to capture it and show it to the world.  How well would any of us come out looking if we were in Philip's shoes? 

He's athletic, and loves the water.  He's adventurous, and somewhat of a daredevil.  He wanted to go into the Air Force and become a fighter pilot, but his uncle Louis Mountbatten talked him out of it; Mountbatten said the Air Force was for the working classes, that royalty always went into the navy, in Britain anyway, which is how Philip ended up making his career in the navy - until it came to a crashing end when the Queen's father died. 

Of course he knew that eventually the King would die and that then Elizabeth would become Queen, and that he would then have to resign from the navy and have a very different life.  But no one had any reason to believe that the King would die so young, only five years after Philip and Elizabeth were married; he might have been expected to live at least another twenty years.  So Philip was caught off guard when it happened, and he was devastated.  In the book 'Young Prince Philip: His Turbulent Early Life' it says of his being informed of his father-in-law's death:

... it was 2:45 p.m. local time and Philip was having a siesta, after having been up for most of the previous night.  Parker [his attendant] woke him with the news.  'He looked absolutely flattened,' Parker later recalled,'as if the world had collapsed on him.  He saw immediately that the idyll of his life and their life together had come to an end.  I never felt so sorry for anyone in my life.'  Philip said nothing to Parker, but breathed in twice very deeply as if in shock.  Then he composed himself and went to find Elizabeth.
(pages 253-254)

This would appear to have been one of the most important events Philip ever experienced, as it changed the whole course of the rest of his life.  So I had a look at the transits to the two charts for February 6, 1952, the date of the King's death.  I unfortunately cannot post charts, but in the 10 a.m. one, Pluto is transiting over the Ascendant - very fitting, remembering that Parker said Philip looked 'flattened' - that's Pluto for you.  And what was transiting over the Ascendant of the 9:46 p.m. chart?  Venus!  I ask you. 

I repeat - I'm just going by what I see.  To me the Leo rising chart looks like Philip, and the Cap rising one doesn't.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 05:25:15 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Prince Philip Montbatten
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2020, 06:09:34 AM »
His whole life has been one of service – military and consort to Queen.

Hi Dean,

You give the impression that Philip's life began when he married the Queen.  But remember, he had lived for twenty-six years before he married her.  Consider the following:

"Why do you think I'm getting married?" he asked Cobina Wright [a girl he'd been madly in love with].  "I'll tell you: It's because I've never really had a home.  From the time I was eight, I've always been away at school or in the navy."

Almost a quarter century later, Philip admitted publicly that his marriage to Elizabeth had been arranged.  ...

"This is not to say that he wasn't fond of Elizabeth when he married her," said his friend Larry Adler.  ... "Was he in love with Elizabeth?  No, but he had a great deal of respect for her."


(From the book 'The Royals' by Kitty Kelly, Warner Books, 1997, page 69)

He wasn't SEEKING a life of service; he was just looking to establish a stable secure life for himself, and finally have a home of his own.  He had no reason to anticipate the extraordinarily sudden, early death of the King. During the early years of their marriage, prior to the death of the King, Philip was the dominant partner in the relationship:

"Before ... whatever we did, it was together," Philip said of his marriage before the accession.  "I suppose I naturally filled the principal position."

No longer.  The strong, dominant, take-charge husband was suddenly unmanned.  He was no longer on an equal footing with his wife.  Constitutionally he had no status, except what he received from the Queen.  ...

His friends watched helplessly as Philip sank into depression after Elizabeth's accession.


('The Royals', page 107)


So it's not like he WANTED a life of service.  He didn't see his career in the navy that way; he saw it as a way of being a leader.  He had aspired to become an admiral, prior to his wife becoming the Queen.  He dealt with the ensuing situation, but he wasn't happy about it.  Being his wife's servant certainly never felt natural to him.

For the record ...