Author Topic: Presidential debate  (Read 2281 times)

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Presidential debate
« on: September 25, 2020, 01:17:51 PM »
Hello Forum,

There is much anticipation and curiosity about the first U.S. presidential debate on Tuesday, September 29 between Trump (seeking reelection to second term) and Biden (seeking election to first term). Post your thoughts on how their charts may affect their performances in the debate. Let’s focus on astrology not politics, please.

My eye is drawn to the role of a transiting Mars in this debate which certainly will be a major confrontation with high stakes, a fact confirmed by transiting Mars, in Aries, tightly triggering both charts. With T Mars generally suggesting an activated fighting spirit, offensively or defensively, will we see a confident, competitive, energized display, and win? Or will impatience or a temperamental martial attack result in failure, frustration, and missing the mark? 

More T Mars ideas:

Both Trump and Biden are operating under the forceful, motivating tension of transiting Saturn-Pluto (combining ambition and desire in results-oriented Capricorn), that is  opposing – confronting, challenging, threatening – the success of their natal planets in protective Cancer.   

For Trump, T Saturn-T Pluto are in his Capricorn 5th House and opposing his 11th House N Saturn-Venus (MC ruler), clearly reflecting a major professional turning point (with the Capricorn, Saturn, and MC ruler references) and the need to gain public approval for his individual performance and record (5-11 emphasis). T Mars in his political 9th House will trigger (square) this opposition AND boost (trine) Trump’s natal Mars-ASC in Leo – emboldening his debate enthusiasm and political points (positively) or accentuating undisciplined or impulsive efforts (negatively)? 

For Biden, T Saturn-T Pluto are in his 2nd House and opposing his natal Ascendant-ruling Jupiter in his 8th House, suggesting political opportunity for his self-worth, opinion, and leadership to be prominently valued by others. T Mars in his 5th House will trigger (square) this opposition – positively sparking Biden’s self-expression and passionate performance or negatively stirring impatience, overreach, or exaggeration?

See link below for presidential debate schedule –

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/politics/presidential-debates-schedule/index.html

Offline Halina

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7388
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 09:00:52 AM »
Thanx PDW, here's the debate chart.....note there is an asteroid for BIDEN called "OLD JOE".

Offline Steven7

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2020, 03:37:01 PM »
 Thanks for the topic and chart PDW + Halina.

Get ready to Rumble!
 This could be extremely entertaining.

The cosmos is all charged up and ready to rock.

If hidin Biden sees his Moon Shadow tonight
There'll  be 4 more years of Trump.
http://planetwatcher.com/#1601427600
  This star scope shows Chiron in opposition to the Sun, Midpoint at 7 Capricorn.

Saturn in Capricorn is square to Mars in Aries
 Excellent stars for a bar room brawl with their Midpoint at 10 Pisces.
Especially with dispositor  Jupiter  in debilitation.
 The corker : Uranus makes 60 degree to the Mars Saturn Midpoint.

 Moon makes 60 d aspect to Jupiter  Midpoint at 17 Aquarius.

Another consideration is the Full Moon  9d 08m Aries on the 1st is tonight 95% full

 TRUMP
https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Donald_Trump

Trans Rahu is on Trump's Sun, 23 Gemini  The dispositor is Mercury so Rahu in
Mercury's sign acts like Mercury, good for the debate, this should help Trump who is usually sharp anyway.
 Trans  Lilith 19 Aries aspects his Uranus Rahu midpoint and trines his Eastern Point.

The Full Moon 9 Aries will square Trump's  Mercury 9 Cancer.

Trans Jupiter and the Moon at debate time aspect Trump's Jupiter and Uranus.

 He'll get some sandbag  questions but he'll  have Joe on the skillet too.
   Prepare to be entertained

  Ran out of time  but here's Joe the Manchurian candidate, have at it.
https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Joe_Biden

  Cleveland Chart
    https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Cleveland_(Ohio)

Trump's PoF  is on Cleveland's Pluto
 

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 03:32:07 AM »
The match-up featured fiery transiting Mars indeed!  With no clear winner, in my view.   

A few good points were made by each candidate but the ‘debate’ was dominated by interruptions, personal attacks, and name-calling from both sides. Frustrating for all, viewers included.

Moderator Chris Wallace, with T Mars opposing his natal Venus and quincunx his natal Jupiter, lost control early on and struggled, unsuccessfully, to rein in the candidates.   

Offline Dean B

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2020, 07:55:16 AM »
Tr. Mars exactly squared Biden's Jupiter - more than anything, he showed righteous anger and the ability to stand up for what he believes.

He exceeded low expectations which suggested he's tired and confused and not up to a debate.

On that score, he came out on top after last night.

The retrograde Mars transit is a re-assertion of energy...a reversal of the 'sleepy Joe' image of late and a re-emergence of confidence.

Dean B.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 08:12:41 AM by Dean B »

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2020, 07:51:28 AM »
Jupiter square Jupiter; Jupiter=Asc/Uranus: In the 9:51 AM chart for Trump, I had mentioned elsewhere that Trump would risk "over doing it" in the debate. My assessment was that Trump is deteriorating (not merely aging) mentally. He appeared desperate and amped up his rhetoric by trafficking in conspiracy theories. He interrupted the debate an unimaginable multiple of times, cutting off the moderator and Biden some 128 times, stealing 30 minutes of air time. There is no way to equivocate his behavior to anything normal. He was described as behaving like a 'monster' or a 'crackhead' which corresponds well with Pluto opposed Saturn. But I think this "perfomative Jupiter transit was too much to handle. Jupiter rules the 5th house and is in the 3rd of this controversial chart. Transiting Venus was smack dab on Mars in the first, Venus ruling the MC and the 3rd. His fiery vitriol was venomously passionate and won over the already converted, but here he erred. He needed to broaden the coalition not reinforce the base. Venus moves into Virgo. And Jupiter moves off the exact midpoint (granted a quincunx but EXACT so suspicious to the EYE) suggesting that Trump was "working feverishly to earn recognition" while Uranus was upsetting the apple cart crossing the MidHeaven, disrupting his status as the head of the country. When Venus moves deeper into the belly of his chart and Jupiter gets off of the square, he may course correct, but too far again. No one has seen a subdued and "censored" Trump to this point. But that is what appears to be in the cards. His main weapon of amplifying his brand, his oft repeated "Truthful Hyperbole," has been decommissioned. Smaller rallies and now a mute button on the microphone for succeeding debates. The "noise" is slowly being squelched and the "signal" may finally be heard above the "noise." Which may not necessarily be a good thing if that "signal" is a dog whistle for an insurrection.     

Biden, with Neptune coming across the I.C. did not appear vibrant to say the least. And his retorts were sparse by comparison and possibly not dignified but eh, what would you do in that situation? Of note is that Biden's supporters suggest he only responded by saying what "everyone was thinking." Although Biden missed some opportunities to counter Trump's attacks (and how could he?), forced to acquiesce at certain points, true to his Saturn retrograde of "going along for the ride" and for being vulnerable to exploitation, he over performed on the simplest metric. He didn't fall asleep. Remarkably, from this viewers point of view, he held fast and demonstrated a fixity and tenacity that only a Scorpio-Taurus blend can demonstrate. He seemed to gain strength throughout the debate and not fade, after coming out on the stage white as a ghost. "Who's afraid of the big bad wolf" MnM sang back in the day, and some millennial created and extraordinary "deep fake" video meme to kind of summarize how the debate went. An obvious nod to Biden's courage in the face of a "bully." I would send it over but the meme was taken down already. Biden's weakness is at once his strength. He is vulnerable emotionally. But tragic experiences have fired and tempered his resilience. We saw this on display when Trump erratically attacked Biden's son Hunter after Biden tried to pivot to discuss the patriotism his son Bo... That could have been a breaking point, but instead it was a moment of compassionate inspiration made vivid in a Neptunian way. At this moment, Biden spoke to the people about a shared family pain "we all have" due to the addiction epidemic. Trump gave Joe the opportunity to express his greatest strength. His empathy. Which contrasts with Trumps total lack of empathy. Joe turned to the camera intermittently and with great effect, where Trump wasn't able to look in the eye of the people even once. Trump demonstrated his utter and complete self absorption in himself and his cockamamie theories.

All in all this was Trump's debate to lose. And he did. Betting boards confirm and so did the Quick Polls. But dems cannot take solace in this data since the Quick Polls registered similar results for HRC in 2016. Biden might be the first U.S. President with the Sun in the 12th House... and although he is ahead in the polls, his winning office doesn't make sense on an astrological basis with Saturn transiting the 2nd. But he is an overachiever. Like Demosthene's or Jack Parr (p. 83 of astrology and Personality). A Biden win may possibly be a Divine Intervention of sorts, but not the sort the radical right is hoping for with a bible toting Trump. I am also thinking back to the movie the King's Speech. Biden is smart. But he doesn't flaunt it. The South Eastern quadrant is lit up in his chart but he has never been sure about his cerebral capacity or how it might be received by others. He's had to work at it. He needed to develop himself, build himself up. But the doubt remains buried and "unreachable." Trump went after this target in a way that only a sociopath would know how to do. But it didn't appear to land well. Biden is well fortified and protected in this area. He overcompensates for deeply held feelings of inferiority. Saturn retrograde rules the 2nd house in Gemini, disposited by Mercury in 12 which is supported by retrograde Jupiter. Biden worked to overcome his stutter and turned a negative experience into a positive through personal development, and as an extension through his efforts to build better institutions. I find his chart remarkable. He is as human as the guy next store with his "gafs" and the penchant he has for misspeaking. But I think there is a deep reservoir of a principled and decent human being who embraces humanistic ideals, compared to Trump who is a superficial parrot of conservative talk radio.

Trump's birth chart has an interesting marker. In Principles and Practice of Astrology, Noel did point out that the Moon conjunct the Nodal Axis can correspond to "insanity." And Trump was born on the Lunar Eclipse. The famous psychologist John Gottman has publicly been railing on about Trump being a "Malignant Narcissist." Gottman is behind the recently released documentary Unfit which I recommend. Gottman's work also showed up in the incredible but short lived television series "Lie to Me." He's an expert in this particular area matching facial expressions and body posture with sincerity and deception etc. Contrary to the Goldwater Rule, Gottman and his colleagues consider it their duty to warn. They consider Trump dangerous and his supporters "enablers." You can see Trump's display of authoritarianism in his Mussolinian Jaw Jut (which to be fair Obama also had). Gottman's work is painstakingly documented and collaborative. Jared Yates Sexton puts some historical context around Gottman's observation from a political point of view in his new book American Rule. We have been here before essentially. Hitler imported many of his ideas for domination from the U.S. Yates essentially deconstructs the "American Myth" of exceptionalism, as a deception and cover up cloaked in a perversion of religion, of a "chosen people." Noel makes a poignant point in Principles about how the German people were offered an antidote to their humiliation and depression by embracing Nazism which appealed to their nationalism and "need" for expressing a compensation by claiming to being a "Superior" race, i.e. "To Be Great Again." Here is a quote Noel used from Eric Fromm: "Individuals can either unite themselves with other people in the spirit of love and shared work or they can find security by submitting to authority and conforming to society. In the one case, the individual uses their freedom to develop a better society; in the other they acquire a new bondage."  [I took the liberty to make the pronouns gender nuetral]

Excuse my long post after a long silence and for positioning a strong statement against Trump. I do not believe that history will repeat itself. Trump is strong but not strong enough. I think he was necessary to stir up the enmities and unfinished business people harbor privately so that the public can build awareness to course correct together and learn to work and love together in the spirit of the Aquarian Age. A while back we discussed The End of the Republican Party, which was an epic thread. I think a Biden presidency will be the beginning of the end of the Democratic Party. The party system is broken and needs to be replaced. We are witnessing the painful and messy birth of something new. It will be fascinating to see what emerges for our children's generation. But the 'ol timers will finally have to step aside.

All the best,


HVA

« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 08:04:12 AM by Hudson Valley Astrologer »

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2020, 12:17:00 PM »
https://twitter.com/brianrkramer/status/1311318791519973378?s=2

Ouch! That was a long ass post when I pull it up on my phone...

Attached is the meme I wrote about. OMG it had me rolling around...

HVA

amymaddalozzo

  • Guest
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2020, 04:35:05 PM »
Yes,  very long post but I agree with a great deal of what you said--both parties are doomed.  We need new ones or some other form of government. By the way, I get e-mails from Christeen Skinner who is more of a verdic astrologer but she is predicting that whoever is president onJanuary 2021 will face extraordinary challenge in 2021  and the Vice President will take over before the end of the 2rd year   AMY

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2020, 01:55:30 AM »
Welcome back, Tim! What a nice surprise to see you again on the Forum in such fine form, as always, inspired, engaging, and passionate. And passionately partisan, in this case. Though not what I look for in political astrology, I understand why some of my astrologer friends are drawn to this kind of interpretation. ;)

Biden might be the first U.S. President with the Sun in the 12th House...

This conjecture sent me down the presidential research path… and the answer is no, he would not be the first. Using A and AA rated charts, I came up with these 12th House Sun presidents:

Ulysses Grant (A) – Taurus Sun
Jimmy Carter (AA) – Libra Sun
George W. Bush (AA) – Cancer Sun

For any interested, while I was at it I reviewed the presidential list of Scorpio (Biden, if elected) and Gemini (Trump) Sun signs, below:

Scorpio –
John Adams
James K. Polk
James Garfield
Teddy Roosevelt
Warren Harding

Gemini –
John Kennedy
George H.W. Bush
Donald Trump

An intriguing coincidence: The Gemini Suns of George H.W. Bush (10:30AM chart, not sure of rating) and Donald Trump (AA) are in their 10th Houses.

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2020, 03:04:17 AM »
Oh wow!

Thanks pdw. For the welcome and the info... I was being lazy and didn't check. I was riffing off Noel's comment on page 92 of Astrology and Personality. Not sure how he missed Grant and Carter. He was much more careful and studied at his art than me. I really need to pull all the presidents together into one data base.

Not really partisan. I am one of those "Lincoln" Republicans and trying to look through the lens of history.

And almost mentioned Trump's health given the 6th house involvement but held back... apparently he tested positive for the "hoax."

Trump was untethered during the debate. He behaved like his congressmen and women who argued his impeachment case in Congress. Absurd. But not the first time we've been here. The country is caught in the grip of a "debility" of which Trump is only a symptom. It doesn't magically heal with a Democratic President. Democrats will likely fracture. I can't see how they do not. The only question in my mind is whether or not it is the end of the two party system which I submit is broken. The Republican Party is slight ahead of the Democrats in its self destruction.

I have looked deeply into Trump's life including discussion with people who are close to him. I truly believe he is "Unfit" to lead. Biden is impressive, but man the guy is showing his age. It will be fascinating to see how the Democrats sabotage themselves and split off from one another. I am also curious as to what emerges. What do you think? If the thought experiment is valid, if Republican and Democrats are in the midst of an irreversible decline, what comes next?

Maybe another thread... looks like Trump's "muzzle" may mean no more debates... if he gets sick from the "hoax."  Either way I do hope he is a one term president.

Cheers

HVA

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 07:51:39 AM »
Hello Forum, the second and last debate is tonight. A few thoughts…

In Trump’s chart transiting Mars has backed off from its over-stimulating position at the first debate, trine his natal Mars-Asc, reflecting the display of impulsive, disruptive, independent behavior – that was not well-received. [Interesting how transiting Venus, conjunct his natal Mars, also supported relating to others with a lively martial display, yet the transiting Sun conjunct-square his Neptune-Mercury square seems to spotlight/question/ warn against hypersensitive communication and negative tactics.]

Trump tonight:
-Transiting Mars is contacting (opposing-sextile) Trump’s natal Jupiter–Uranus trine, perhaps an indication that his focus may be on actively promoting/defending his policies – with transiting Jupiter square his natal Jupiter also in orb. Coming across as positive and optimistic, or overconfident and confrontational?
-I’m also curious how the transiting Sun at a critical degree for relating, 29 Libra, may positively highlight/support his communication and charm (T Sun in his 3rd House and sextile his Leo ASC).
-T Venus in practical Virgo is sextile his natal Saturn-Venus which might suggest more self-control at this debate. It is also squaring his natal Sun-Moon opposition, perhaps reflecting his awareness of the personal and professional importance of this debate, a job-related event (referenced by Venus ruling his MC).

In Biden’s chart transiting Mars has backed off from triggering (square) his natal Jupiter, under formidable tension from the opposing Capricorn transits, suggesting the turbulent confrontation at the first debate. Which many think he won, potentially reflecting the highlight from the transiting Sun in his 10th House and sextile his natal Pluto.     

Biden tonight:
-T Mars doesn’t trigger his chart…perhaps a calming influence for Biden compared to the Mars interference last time.
-Like Trump, the transiting Sun at a critical degree, 29 Libra, is contacting Biden’s chart, exactly sextile his 9th House natal Node – highlighting an opportunity to clarify his public policy, political associations, and close relationships, perhaps.
-I’m most curious how/if we’ll see transiting Mercury exactly square his natal Pluto reflected tonight – suggesting emotionally intense communication/interaction involving his personal 12th House Scorpio planets. Will this combo motivate powerful, persuasive, revealing self-expression – or create/attract challenging, argumentative, stressful exchanges with others? 
-T Venus in his 10th House and sextile his natal Mercury looks favorable for popularity/public appeal.

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Presidential debate
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2020, 11:25:42 AM »
Lucky us, we got to see a much more informative debate this time around. Both candidates did fairly well, I thought, and reflected their triggered sextile opportunities and leadership in action. Trump was personally engaged, confident and at ease (with T Sun sextile his ASC and T Venus sextile his natal Saturn-Venus). Biden confidently connected with the public, turning to the camera and directly addressing voters several times (with T Sun sextile his Node and T Venus sextile his natal Mercury). 

Biden tonight:
 
-I’m most curious how/if we’ll see transiting Mercury exactly square his natal Pluto reflected tonight – suggesting emotionally intense communication/interaction involving his personal 12th House Scorpio planets. Will this combo motivate powerful, persuasive, revealing self-expression – or create/attract challenging, argumentative, stressful exchanges with others? 


I missed something that potentially makes this trigger more significant: T Uranus was also squaring his natal Pluto and being contacted (opposed) by T Mercury suggesting a more provocative, problematic, or unexpected outcome for Biden – and some troublesome Plutonian-12th House issues did surface. He denied profiting from foreign money and deflected questions about the Hunter Biden story. He was caught in a lie about his stance on fracking, however, and may have scared off voters in the oil and gas industry with his energy plan to transition away from oil. Will any of this damage his credibility, polling, or support from voters? We’ll see.