Is Astrology a Science?

[Ken Haining]

Hi All

A question that comes up in connection with Astrology is, "Is Astrology a science?" 

My answer would be, "Yes, but it is a complex science that is nowhere near being completely developed." 

I liken Astrology, especially Predictive Astrology, to Meteorology.  Just because the weather report turns out to be wrong doesn't mean the Meteorology is not a science.  You are dealing with a complex system with many factors, and thus absolute accuracy cannot be guaranteed.  However, as any science is perfected, it becomes more and more accurate.  I think this is true of Astrology.

The reason that I bring this up is because I viewed a short video of the late Noel Tyl, and he states, in this video, that Astrology is NOT a science, but is an art.  If this is so, then how would we explain the Sun Sign dynamics?  Taurus can't be Libra, and visa versa.  Something is hardcoded in the person that relates to the Sun Sign that they were burn under.  And what about prediction?  I would have to think that there is a definite scientific element to astrological prediction. 

I thought I would throw this out there to get opinions on this subject.  I understand that each astrologer will see a Natal Chart through their own lens, so to speak, but the chart itself, in my mind, is a scientific blueprint of the person.  It's almost like genetics.  And indicators, such as Transits, Solar Arcs, etc., which affect a person's life conditions, scream science.  How could someone foresee death looking at a Natal Chart, for example, if Astrology were not a science? 

If you want to watch this short video of Noel, you can view it here,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hy6xLLX1mM&ab_channel=EdmondWollmann 

As always, I will be curious to read any responses.
Ken

[pdw]

No, I don't consider astrology a science and I think exact predictions based on it are unreliable and somewhat foolish, because so often they are wrong. 

For me it's the study of a body of knowledge (the '-ology' part) associated with the planets et al and how-if these celestial connections are reflected in humans. I find it a fascinating, ongoing observation of the 'As above, so below' principle in action, sometimes accurate and meaningful, sometimes not as much.

In relation to artistry I do think the individual 'eye of the beholder' is a major factor in interpretation, or as Noel has said, it's more about the astrologer than the astrology.

[Ken Haining]

Hi PDW

I think that part of the problem here is the mixture of the science of Astrology and the art of counseling people based on their Natal Chart.  The counseling part is the "art," but the pure Astrology is the science. 

If Astrology is not a science, then how do some astrologers, such as James Alexander and Isaac Starkman, do chart rectifications based on events in the person's life?  We are dealing with mathematics, and not art.  Math and science are intrinsically linked, and Astrology is mathematically based. 

The science of Astrology seems to be in a beginning phase, so to speak.  We know certain things work, but there is a lot more that we do not know.  It will take a lot of research to refine predictions, but some astrologers have made some impressive predictions.  How did Grant Lewi, when he looked at his chart one day, know he was going to die the next month? 

Geology is a science, but predicting earthquakes is really hard to do with the amount of knowledge and technology that we currently have.  That doesn't mean that Geology is not a science. 

As I recall, Astrologer, Sidney Omar, predicted the outcome of 26 heavyweight boxing matches successfully, and only failed on the 27th for lack of a birth time. 

As you know, I am trying to get this prediction stuff down, and thus my very long discussion of Prediction vs Perfect Hindsight.  However, I think that it is typical for those who mock Astrology to ignore the other sciences with their own limitations.  I've looked at a weather report, and then looked at it again 2 hours later, and it is completely changed.  But, Meteorology is still a science. 

As I already mentioned, counseling is an art.  This is why Noel would say that it is more about the astrologer than the Astrology.  That denotes a person who is talented at counseling others.  In fact, during a lot of astrological consultations, very little of the chart is discussed.  Many who seek out an astrologer are simply seeking an alternative type of counseling, and if the astrologer is a talented counselor, he might not be that good at Astrology, but people will pay to have a session with him or her. 

There is also the factor of the Natal Chart analysis and Predictive Astrology.  My son has taken Natal Chart Analysis to new heights, and I hope he can publish his stuff some day.  However, he, like many astrologers, gets frustrated with Predictive Astrology.  And so, really, we have two different areas of Astrology that we need to develop. 

Well, then, back to trying to predict when I might have a "lucky day."  If I am ever successful I will carefully note the indicators of that day on my Natal Chart.  Hopefully, over the decades to come, astrologers will be able to perfect the science of prediction using Astrology.

Ken

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "The counseling part is the "art," but the pure Astrology is the science."

The two seem mostly ingrained in each other.  I can read your Moon and know about your emotional nature and drive for security; but without an exact mathematical calculation of just where that Moon is and how it connects to other parts of the chart, I would have no Moon to "read."   

Re: "If Astrology is not a science, then how do some astrologers, such as James Alexander and Isaac Starkman, do chart rectifications based on events in the person's life?"

This does emphasize the math element, however, the program Polaris artfully connects aspects with a (subjective) likelihood that that particular aspect relates to the particular event at hand.  (in terms of the program's weighting)  With Polaris, it is worth mentioning, that though the exception; your birthtime is resolvable with scant events.  (the primary directions for the correct birthtime being so strongly definitive)  In some sense, this is pure programming.  (and therefore at the science end of the polemic, if we choose to see these as polemic)  I think like left-brain/right-brain; they are likely two sides to ONE COIN. 

Re: "Geology is a science, but predicting earthquakes is really hard to do with the amount of knowledge and technology that we currently have.  That doesn't mean that Geology is not a science."

Great point and it does underscore that the existing body of knowledge might not be complete.   

Re: "As I recall, Astrologer, Sidney Omar, predicted the outcome of 26 heavyweight boxing matches successfully, and only failed on the 27th for lack of a birth time."

If that is correct (and there was no cherry-picking), then he had a 96+% success rate, against 2^26 (67M) to 1 (odds for his successes).  That definitely points more towards the science, than art element.  (depending partially of course on HOW he went about forming his judgement)

Re: "This is why Noel would say that it is more about the astrologer than the Astrology."

I agree and much depends also on why the astrologer is doing what they do.  Is the overall goal to help people?  To give hope, where it is missing?  To increase self-understanding?  To show off how smart/right the astrologer is?  There are many reasons people do astrology as there are many reasons people ask astrologers.  On the subreddit, there are sometimes questions of the form, "can you give me information about my 2nd House and Venus and Jupiter?"  It becomes obvious what the person is generally asking through the astrology.  ("Where is the money in my chart, and how can I find more of it?")  A long discussion about spiritual precepts and money as the root of much evil might be exactly what the person needs to hear, but it's not technically what they are looking for...at least from their perspective.  I can agree with Noel's statement whole-heartedly, as in no other "work" is the difference from the worst-of-the-worst to the best-of-the-best so extreme.

Throughout time, there have often been quite a few astrologers in number; but often only a few that are the pinnacle.  (I mean in terms of understanding, not of success.)  It might very well be that only the relative cream of the crop are really truly proficient. 

Re: "There is also the factor of the Natal Chart analysis and Predictive Astrology."

This is a connection that is made, but is not inherent in astrology itself.  (Natal) Astrology is looking for greater personal understanding and self-knowledge.  Though the public's perception of it, has it more in the "prediction" camp, it is not inherently there that it shines the brightest.  We can look at your chart and see the struggle and some self-determined individuality.  This is with or without seeing specifically WHEN certain things would happen.  Most of the astrologers that have written books on prediction, preface their analyses with comments along the line of "it has to be in the natal chart" in order for it to transpire.  This is saying NOTHING about WHEN the various circumstances happen.  In my natal chart [T-Square Saturn-Neptune-Node] and in my epoch chart [Saturn opposite Moon], there is the suggestion of an early separation from my Mother.  That various elements of this separation would happen on this day or that one, and through this person or that, seem of a different (lessened) level of importance as to the over-arching principle and what that means in terms of perspective.

Re: "Hopefully, over the decades to come, astrologers will be able to perfect the science of prediction using Astrology."

Again, we are caught with the complexity of the same event happening in two peoples' lives for different reasons. 

Bob might have Mars and Uranus configured (angular in a lunar return, transits, etc.) and have an auto accident.  He was leaping before he looked and full of unbridled energy and one thing just led to another. 

Julie might have Saturn and Mercury configured (angular in a lunar return, transits, etc.) and have an auto accident.  She was due a little bit of "automobile and mobility austerity." 

If in terms of the resulting ("same") events, seeing "Mars-Uranus can be equal to Saturn-Mercury," how would we ever arrive at a scientifically acceptable theory of any particular planetary connection to "auto accidents"? 

Granted, the more different elements we take into consideration, the more we might potentially land at a more specific conclusion; but also potentially that we are overloaded with possibilities. 

As always,...events where there is some fixed time period can make astrology look brilliant.  [Look at Marr's and Starkman's success in Presidential elections, for instance.]  For open-ended ranges of time and just pulling some arbitrary event out of thin air, it'll often fall right on its face. 

[Ken Haining]

Hi OD'd James Alexander

You said:

"If in terms of the resulting ("same") events, seeing 'Mars-Uranus can be equal to Saturn-Mercury,' how would we ever arrive at a scientifically acceptable theory of any particular planetary connection to 'auto accidents'? "

The theory would be that if we could refine the science enough then we would be able to say that these indicators would denote two different types of auto accidents.  Admittedly, that would take some real refinement, and by the time we achieved it, we would probably have excellent mass transit, and cars would have been rendered obsolete.  Also, the different indicators might denote different levels of injury, so that they might simply indicate an injurious accident as opposed to a fatal accident, whether it be an auto accident or falling down the stairs.  In fact, just fell down some stairs yesterday, but managed to land so that I was just bruised and dazed.  I suppose if our astrological analysis was refined enough, we could determine why I only suffered minor injury vs devastating injury vs fatal injury.  Perhaps the level of injury by accident is more within analyzing than the type of accident?  Of course, we would want to be able to predict both.

And this brings us back to that familiar topic of, if we see something on a chart that indicates an accident, will warning that person enable them to bypass the accident?  Another example is we might see a death configuration for someone at age 63, but also see one at age 87.  Does this suggest that the person has a choice and could get to 87 by simply taking care of their health with a solid diet and consistent exercise?  Or by exercising safety protocols as they traverse this world?  Or are these events written in stone?  This is part of the mystery of life, what we can control and what we can't control.

And our quest for knowledge continues.

Ken

[Ken Haining]

Hi OD'd James Alexander

You said:

"Throughout time, there have often been quite a few astrologers in number; but often only a few that are the pinnacle.  (I mean in terms of understanding, not of success.)  It might very well be that only the relative cream of the crop are really truly proficient."

This is something that I have always noted:  success is not necessarily related to talent, ability, and proficiency.  It also depends on how we define "success."  An astrologer, who has a significant clientele, and whose clients rave about the readings that he or she gives them, may never write even one book.  Yet, you would be far more satisfied having a reading by that astrologer than someone who wrote several relatively successful Astrology books. 

I compare it to pizza.  The guy who runs a local Pizzaria, who does it right, fresh daily made sauce, real cheese, quality toppings, and some good side products like meatball subs and salads, makes food that absolutely is soooo much better than that franchise junk, has some lucky customers.  He may never become super rich like the guy who gets into franchising sub quality pizza, but he's the best at his craft, and he knows it.  So do his customers. 

That's just the way life is.  I remember when I was in college, we had some times where various local musicians would play and sing in a room up in the student center.  This guy came in and played on an acoustic guitar and sang all these amazing songs he wrote.  I went up to him afterwards and asked him what his plans were, was he going to be trying to get on records?  He said, "No.  I just play for fun..."  I was stunned.  I never saw him again, and I never got to hear those songs again as well. 

And that brings us to the success factors on an astrological chart.  Some people seem destined for riches and/or fame, while others go mostly unnoticed, and many times struggle financially.  This is among highly intelligent, talented people.  In fact, some people's talent is simply tapping into wealth, and not really much else, and they often are making money off of other people's talents.  See the music industry.   

So, here's to all the great unknowns in all kinds of venues, including Astrology.  They may never have their names in lights, but they make the world a better place.

Now if I could just find that pizza place.

Ken



 

 

[pdw]

This discussion reminded me of a Rudyhar quote that has always resonated with me,

Astrology is a language. If you understand this language, the sky speaks to you.

The language analogy suits my view of the complexity of learning astrology and developing skill (fluency) as a translator-interpreter.   

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "And this brings us back to that familiar topic of, if we see something on a chart that indicates an accident, will warning that person enable them to bypass the accident?"

If they did "bypass the accident," what fulfills the other astrological factors that were present?   (the time out of work, the sudden added responsibility to their spouse, missing a desirable concert the following day?) 

Re: multiple types of auto accident

While, yes, in some sense if we're looking at the malefics; there would have to be statistical anomalies (compared to benefic planets), when there are "bad" things that "happen."  But much of what seems to transpire (event-wise) is based on the meaning level of the astrological symbolism present in time.  The possibility of actual specific events that could happen is virtually infinite and especially as we move from the categories "good" and "bad" more towards "accident" and "no accident" up to "auto accident" and not; then up to "auto accident due to high speed" and not... etc. 

Isaac's program Polaris looks (in primary directions) for astrological symbolism that matches the category for that specific type of event.  Many of the categories have somewhat overlapping astrology in many instances.  That is the distinction that will be hard to deduce  In the Saturn-Venus example in a previous thread, that aspect's symbolism can be played out in many ways, and the way it plays out for a specific person, could likely be considered relatively unique.  All of the things that Saturn can mean multiplied by all of the things that Venus can mean gives us a very large matrix!!!  Are we tight on money, did we separate from a female, do we like a girl in school but are too inhibited, do we have to take care of our aunt, do we suddenly realize we need to do some real work to find a little luxury in our life, do we get a goitre, do we become a prostitute, do we marry a much older person, do we find out our partner has been unfaithful?  All of these can relate directly to Saturn-Venus.  Which one is it?  How would the computer arrive at the answer?  It doesn't even have intuition to help it.    
 
The further we move from "some restriction/hardship" relating to "something of value"; with each further, varying step we take along the meaning, the more we are likely to be shooting spit balls to see what sticks.  It is true, when we take in House references, we can often be more definitive.  Still, it doesn't get us past the idea that things happen for reasons.  I believe they are to impart certain lessons.  How that needs to happen, in terms of specific events, I believe is quite varied, from person to person.  (Though all of life is homogenous in some ways...there are only 12 Houses .  What needs to happen in Julia's life (for example) in order to impart these lessons to Julia could (and most likely would) be quite different than your or my Saturn-Venus activation. 

For me, Saturn opposed natal Venus in March of 2022.  I knew my Dad was on his last legs.  In fact, in March, his last leg.  It wasn't too many days after the amputation, that Dad died.  Many decades ago, he had started a fund for each of his kids and he said that he would never tap into it; so that when he would die, we would each be able to get something nice and feel better about the whole circumstance.  It wasn't a lot of money, but would end up being around $10K each.  For me, Saturn is in my 8th House (inheritance), in a sign it rules and squares my 5th House Neptune.  It is transiting the 8th as well!  When it contacted Venus, I finally would be getting a musical something (Line 6 Helix) that I had been dreaming of having for quite some time.  The MAIN EVENT at that time was the death of my Father.  Looking at Saturn-Venus, we might have come up with an element of it, but only really knowing the potentialities beforehand.  As for the death, we would potentially sense that in Pluto opposite Moon, and Uranus opposite Neptune.  We would normally associate Saturn more with a denial of something, but in dignity, it can be the long time arrival of something good (though true to Saturn's nature, being through somber circumstances).   

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Excellent quote and thanks for mentioning Rudhyar. 

It was mainly due to him that I began to understand the progressed lunar cycle and its phases and how important they are thematically over those ~29 years of each whole cycle.  He is a rough read, but worth it in making for a broader understanding, since he takes the time to walk through the philosophical and metaphysical implications.  If anyone recommended many of his works to a relative beginner, it would be no surprise if they put their pursuit of astrology "back on the shelf," hanging over an unplayed guitar. 

Anyone that wades through Rudhyar should get an extra ribbon or merit badge!

[Ken Haining]

Hi OD'd on Life, James Alexander

It is interesting when we see a mixture of the good, the bad, and the ugly with Transits, Solar Arcs, etc., and as you pointed out, there is more to seeing what is going to happen than a simple formula that computer could apply to those indicators. 

It can go like this:  Someone has an accident with indicators on her chart showing that this was likely, but other indicators showing a time of good fortune.  So, the person whose chart we are looking at has a car accident, has some discomfort with some injuries, but recovers well, and gets a red hot lawyer who gets her a much larger than average payout from the insurance company than would have been expected.  The indication of good fortune does not cancel out the accident, but the good fortune part of what is going on with the chart has its expressions as well. 

I read an account, many years ago, about a German who lived during the time of the Cold War in East Germany, part of the Soviet Union.  Owing to the misery that the Communist Regime put people under, the government had to set up barriers to keep their citizens from fleeing to the West.  These included barbed wire, machine gun towers, and mine fields.  This German young man was desperate to get to West Germany, and risked all to get past the barriers.  He made it only after a mine blew one of his feet clean off.  He managed to crawl the rest of the way, and indeed got to freedom.  With the help of the West German government, and the German people, he got established and started his own business, from which he attained a good living.  When he recounted his daring escape, he noted that it was well worth losing a foot to get out of the Soviet Union, and had no regrets.  I would suppose on his chart, at the time of his escape, he would have had indications of severe trial, but also of good fortune.  I wonder what various astrologers would have said to him if he had consulted any of them a few days before his escape? 

There are very few times of pure good fortune or pure misfortune in a person's life.  Being able to discern the mixture is a talent and a skill that make for a great astrologer.

Ken

[Ken Haining]

Hi PDW

You quoted Rudyhar:

"Astrology is a language. If you understand this language, the sky speaks to you."

One of the facets of learning a second language is there are different levels that you can attain.  You can become merely functional, and speak what is called "textbook" language.  Or, you can get a real feel for the language and take it to the point where you speak it and understand it like a native. 

I knew an American who lived in the Philippines for several years, and he told me that one day he was teaching a class at a church, but forgot his notes.  He told the students to wait, saying that, "I will just run back to the house and get my notes."  The students were impressed as his house was about four miles away, and he was going to "run back!?!"  Wow, these Americans are in shape!  In reality, he meant he was going to drive back, but these Filipinos spoke textbook English, and so they took him literally. 

Different languages have different feels to them.  It takes quite a bit of time and interaction with the people who have a language as their first language to get the feel of that language.  And with astrological language, it takes a lot of interactions with people and their charts to get that same kind of a feel for it.  That is why discussions, such as we have on this message board, are so useful.  The more we interact, the more of a feel we get for that language of Astrology.

Ken

[pdw]

I agree, OD, Rudyhar is a 'classic' that's worth the read. I imagine the young folks take the plunge if they're really serious about astrology. This morning I revisited his chart and noted his Aries Sun and Aquarius Moon for his contribution as an exceptional thought leader and holistic trailblazer. Though sometimes it is hard to follow where his inspired Pisces Mercury takes him.

Ken, so true about different levels of fluency. Languages are systematic, yet words, meanings, and usage are nuanced, as your example shows. It takes time, exposure, and practice to become fluent, much less proficient, in any language, including astrology.   

[linchi]

Astrology is a very complicated and mathematically exact science.

In astrology each planetary picture has several meanings but for each event there is only one planetary picture. I have proven in my publications that there is only one planetary picture for each event, e.g. marriage, divorce, cancer, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

There are many false assertions in astrology.
To check astrological statements for accuracy and to find the planetary picture for an event, we need a correct, reliable procedure. Focusing only on the axes and expecting to find something will not get astrology anywhere, and we will come to wrong conclusions, like MA/UR and ME/SA above, because astrology, as I wrote above, is not that simple.


Alfred Witte and Friedrich Sieggrün already wrote in 1925:

"From the tradition it will take over the axioms of this ancient science and subject all further teachings to a strict criticism, in order to remove from its area every superstitious ballast, which adheres to astrology to a high degree and is applied by its followers in practice without criticism.

The goal to be achieved is not to find out the future by prognosis by means of completely insufficient means, but to increase the exactness of the metagnosis by the investigations. Especially in the beginning it has to be devoted to this task."

[Ken Haining]

Greetings, Linchi

Good to see you writing here.

The hindsight factor is interesting, as it seems that we astrologers can say, "Ah-ha!" when someone puts up a past event, and we look at their Natal Chart and the indicators, such as Transits, Solar Arcs, Progressions, Primary Directions, etc., and we say, "See!  Right there, you can see that this or that was the determining factor concerning what happened."  But when it comes to predicting the future events, we fall short. 

As Transiting Jupiter is now almost exactly conjunct Transiting Uranus, and this is a significant point on my chart and my son's chart, I will be looking for an effect, and I would think it would be a positive one,  based on multiple considerations.  But as always, "We will see."  I take comfort in the fact that each time we have a false prediction, we come closer to an accurate prediction.

Still hoping that his Solar Year for me will turn out as positive as you thought it might.  I am just past halfway through that year, and I am looking for a breakthrough in my circumstances.  Thanks for all the research that you do in the field of Astrology.

Ken

 

[Antonio]

Google gave me these results for the two most pressing questions I had on this topic:

Will AI replace astrologers?
A- AI astrology can supplement traditional astrological practices by providing additional insights and analyses. However, it's unlikely to fully replace the expertise and intuition of human astrologers who can offer personalized interpretations and guidance based on nuanced factors beyond the scope of AI algorithms.10/04/2024

Will artificial intelligence ever gain consciousness?
A mathematical and philosophical analysis on the most asked question about AI
https://towardsdatascience.com/will-artificial-intelligence-gain-consciousness-d464d1ad7264

p.s.: Thanks to Basil for bringing the Tyl Forum back and to all the members who keep it alive and vibrant!