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Author Topic: Synchronicity as explanatory model for astrological correlations  (Read 20468 times)
Adriana
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« on: May 01, 2010, 10:51:09 AM »

Astrology needs a coherent philosophic and scientific framework.

If we revived Kepler, he would surely recognize modern astrology, be delighted by the elegant astrological software, Transaturnians, asteroids, etc. But he would be struck by how little has changed since his day, especially in contrast to the extraordinary explosion of knowledge in astronomy. Where are the astrological advances that compare with Kepler's three laws of planetary motion, Galileo's formulation of the scientific method, Newton's mechanics, or Einstein's general relativity?

The sophisticated statistical confirmation of the fundamental principles of Astrology by the Gauquelins is very important, it provides real scientific proof of the existence of astrological correlations for the first time in history.

Astrologers often like to appeal to Carl Jung's principle of synchronicity to illuminate the involved mechanism behind astrological correlations. The old superstition of "planetary influences" is not longer more supported by young modern astrologers nor by modern science neither.

Jung's original synchronicity concept needs to be expanded to better suit a modern and real explanatory model for astrology, given the lack of any other logical or coherent explanatory model today.

I'd like to hear the opinions of fellow astrologers about this new models that open the door for a modern view of astrology by science today.

Thank you,

Adriana
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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 11:07:19 AM »

Astrology needs a coherent philosophic and scientific framework.

If we revived Kepler, he would surely recognize modern astrology, be delighted by the elegant astrological software, Transaturnians, asteroids, etc. But he would be struck by how little has changed since his day, especially in contrast to the extraordinary explosion of knowledge in astronomy. Where are the astrological advances that compare with Kepler's three laws of planetary motion, Galileo's formulation of the scientific method, Newton's mechanics, or Einstein's general relativity?

The sophisticated statistical confirmation of the fundamental principles of Astrology by the Gauquelins is very important, it provides real scientific proof of the existence of astrological correlations for the first time in history. [.......]

A lot more work needs to be done regarding Gauquelin's observations for planets in the Sectors.
See the graphs below which show how a trend can disappear after holding up for 980 samples.
This was for Moon in Sectors 5 and 8 for Gauquelin Sportsmen, and although it was not an
observation by Gauquelin, it could have been if he had only collected 980 samples.
The data for both graphs was sorted into birth order for each of the famous Sportsmen and
was sitting near 20% above the expected rate for a long time - many years.




« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 11:12:11 AM by Ray Murphy » Logged
Adriana
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 11:32:53 AM »


Hmmm this is weird...

Gauquelin's results had been replicated and confirmed by many different independent scientific teams.

The trend disappear when the protocols of research are not taken into proper consideration (ie. the eminence factor), the samples must match certain requeriments for to be accepted into these studies, is not just a matter of quantity but of "quality" in this research, unappropiate selection of samples they (and they did) make a trend dissapear, this is the explanation that I can give for it.

Interesting anyway...

What are your thoughts about the synchonicity model for astrology?

Thanks,

Adriana


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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 12:36:15 PM »


Hmmm this is weird...

Gauquelin's results had been replicated and confirmed by many different independent scientific teams.

I had the impression that only a part of his work for the Sectors had been replicated in a few studies and not replicated in others.

Quote
The trend disappear when the protocols of research are not taken into proper consideration (ie. the eminence factor), the samples must match certain requeriments for to be accepted into these studies, is not just a matter of quantity but of "quality" in this research, unappropiate selection of samples they (and they did) make a trend dissapear, this is the explanation that I can give for it.

As far as I know, no one has dealt with the issue of trends gradually disappearing when
birth data is placed in sequence. I only found it myself a year ago, and I now apply it to all
research results that look promising - so not only must a result BE good, it must have been
consistently good for a fair while (after some leveling out takes place for the first few hundred
samples at least).

Quote
Interesting anyway...

What are your thoughts about the synchonicity model for astrology?

Thanks,

Adriana

I have no idea what others say about synchonicity, but I believe that astrology works
because of 2 types of synchonicity - (1) A simple 'timing' connection between, living
things and the movement of some celestial bodies, and (2) A psychic synchonicity that
comes into play when astrologers pick certain methods for answering questions about
charts or how they should read them at any given moment.

I don't believe that non-living things have charts for their 'births', but I do believe that
they are connected to the event charts at their 'births' - not because it is the entity's
OWN chart but simply because all event charts are connected to all other event charts
anyway. This might sound like its the same thing, but if it's only the chart for the Time
& Date that is working, then entities would effectively have multiple charts that are
sensitive to future (and past) transits.

Ray


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Adriana
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 07:13:25 AM »

Hello Ray,

well, about Gauquelin research I think that is all done. This means that it has been confirmed once and again over the past 60 years to conclude a very strong evidence of the astrological correlations discovered by Michel and Françoise Gauquelin, this is just a FACT.

Regarding synchronicity I totally agree with you, it's in my view in the only explanatory model for modern Astrology, we should be grateful to the contributions made by both, Michel Gauquelin and Carl Jung in the last century as they provide not only a scientific reliable proof that "something is truth within astrology", and Jung (a medical doctor into astrology) debunked the ancient superstitions about planetary influences by replacing it by a more modern explanatory mechanism for to explain how astrology works.

In other words, a birth chart synchronistically mirrors a precise moment in the sky - this is of course a matter of timing and harmony. After all, astrology is based in Time, is a science of time, and the study of meaningful correlations between celestial movements and terrestrial affairs, including a newborn, the development of his or her trends, and many other applications currently in use in astrology.

Astrology has long been defined as a science, which purports to explain the correlations between the movements of the planets and stars, and their influence on the course of earthly occurrences and human affairs.

There has been a continual dilemma over the nature of the astrological phenomena or mechanism since at least the 2nd century CE following Ptolemy's Tetrabiblios.  Indeed, it wasn't until very recently in the 20th century with the work of Jung that astrology began to be conceptualized outside of a more causally based framework, and instead within the context of an acausal or purely correlative phenomena.

Horary astrology is based off of the presumption that there is a synchronistic correspondence or parallel of meaning between the psychic state of the querent who poses the question to the astrologer and the alignment of the horoscopic chart that forms the answer to the question at that moment.  Natal astrology presumes that there is a synchronistic correspondence between the alignment of the horoscopic chart of an individual at birth, and the pattern and nature of that individual's life.  The premise is that different moments of time have particular qualities inherent in them, and things which happen at the same moment in time are an expression of the same time content.  The synchronicity of natal astrology is similar to horary, except that instead of the horoscopic chart describing the answer to a question formed at a specific moment in time, the natal chart describes the entire life of the individual based off of the quality of time inherent in the moment that they were born.

Jung's theory of synchronicity was an important development to the history of horoscopic astrology in the 20th century because it reinvigorated the art with a consistent theoretical basis, which was something that had been missing, or had not been explicitly apparent for the greater part of its history.

Synchronicity seems to work as a fourth principal with which to explain connections between things in addition to time, space, and causality.  As a theory, it can be applied to many subjects that previously were unexplainable through modern scientific thought, but its main and most profound application is to the field of astrology.


Not only the astrological community, but also the world owes its gratitude to one man for resuscitating, and reconceptualizing an ancient concept into modern idiom and making it known to the world. His name was Carl Gustav Jung.

The above paragraphs are some excerpts of the wondeful essay made by Chris Brennan, graduated by Kepler College, for a further reading of his complete and brilliant essay please read it here:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=628600&blogId=47080375

By the way, I am Diplomed by the Faculty of Astrological Studies from 20 years ago - I was a teenager then, and I had many time to develop diferent explanatory models for to explain the underlying nature of Astrology. Synchronicity is the answer.

Have a nice Sunday,

Adriana
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pdw
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 09:10:25 AM »

Hello Adriana,

Thank you for the thoughtful posts. 

My observation is that astrology offers a multi-conceptual capacity - depending on the user (astrologer).  If you need it to be hard science (mechanistic), it can be.  If your interest is in social science (observation-experience) ala psychology it certainly fits into that model; and, of course many view astrology with a spiritual perspective (supernatural).   

I must admit astrology application is my interest, rather than its explanation.  I think of myself as living with an astrology knowledge base that I very much want to use.  Such a desire probably does increase my chances of (noticing) synchronicity - a concept I find as unique as astrology itself.     

Best with your astrology ahead.     
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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 05:18:50 PM »

Hello Ray,

well, about Gauquelin research I think that is all done. This means that it has been confirmed once and again over the past 60 years to conclude a very strong evidence of the astrological correlations discovered by Michel and Françoise Gauquelin, this is just a FACT.

Some of the correlations regarding planets in Sectors have been replicated,
but very few details have reached the internet yet, and very few people who
are familiar with probability statistics - or believe those who are familiar, think
that the results are solid. The results I've seen are nowhere near solid because
too little data was used.

I don't have much confidence in the Gauquelin Sectors yet, but in the last 12
months I've had even less confidence after discovering how trends can gradually
disappear when birth data is placed in sequence. It's clear that some trends DO
come and go without any known reason - and they can stay that way for many
years.

This phenomena I've found has nothing to do with planets in certain signs in
different years or eras. It's clearly associated with occupations, although I
wouldn't be surprised if the same thing is found with other things as well,
including random data. Fortunately it will be easy enough to check by simply
generating random data and randomly applying "occupation" tags to each chart.

Here's something I've posted before - COMEDIANS AND TV HOSTS in Astrodatabank.
The trend was much stronger than anything that the Gauquelins ever found for
Mars in a Sector, but it could easily disappear when more data is added.
http://users.tpg.com.au/raymurph//Comedians+TV_host_547.gif

Quote
Regarding synchronicity I totally agree with you, it's in my view in the only explanatory model for modern Astrology, we should be grateful to the contributions made by both, Michel Gauquelin and Carl Jung in the last century as they provide not only a scientific reliable proof that "something is truth within astrology", and Jung (a medical doctor into astrology) debunked the ancient superstitions about planetary influences by replacing it by a more modern explanatory mechanism for to explain how astrology works.

I wouldn't agree that Jung debunked anything. He apparently ~did~ give us a
word we could use for a phenomena that astrologers believed existed anyway,
but that's all - apart from helping to give astrology a bit more credence, although
some of that was done without ever supplying the evidence upon which his
conclusions were reached - not that he was expected to do that (in that era).

Quote
In other words, a birth chart synchronistically mirrors a precise moment in the sky - this is of course a matter of timing and harmony. After all, astrology is based in Time, is a science of time, and the study of meaningful correlations between celestial movements and terrestrial affairs, including a newborn, the development of his or her trends, and many other applications currently in use in astrology.

Astrology has long been defined as a science, which purports to explain the correlations between the movements of the planets and stars, and their influence on the course of earthly occurrences and human affairs.

There has been a continual dilemma over the nature of the astrological phenomena or mechanism since at least the 2nd century CE following Ptolemy's Tetrabiblios.  Indeed, it wasn't until very recently in the 20th century with the work of Jung that astrology began to be conceptualized outside of a more causally based framework, and instead within the context of an acausal or purely correlative phenomena.

It doesn't matter if there's a physical cause or not because a lot of things
in astrology are not connected to anything in the heavens, either directly
via physical causes or via synchronicity - much of astrology is a language
that helps us focus better on those parts of astrology that ARE real.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 05:29:10 PM by Ray Murphy » Logged
Adriana
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 06:12:59 PM »

synchronicity - a concept I find as unique as astrology itself.         

Hi Pdw,

yes it is, a very unique concept with full meaning especially in astrology.

Gravity, relativity, synchronicity... these are all very unique scientific models that cannot be physically modeled, but logically inferred instead, as Newton, Einstein and Jung did.

Have a nice day
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Adriana
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2010, 06:31:31 PM »

Ray:

Very interesting the Astrodatabank's results, they add more confidence in astrological statistical research, and in Gauquelin's results too.

I am of the opinion that Michel and Françoise Gauquelin, and Carl Gustav Jung, they made important scientific contributions to the field of astrology in the last century, these contributions are sometimes neglected by some astrologers, especially by those astrologers of less objective orientation, but I really think that these contributions are very important and they mean a turning point in the history of Astrology.

Whilst a natal chart synchronistically mirrors the sky at birth, more sophisticated astrological techniques works with that very precise Unit of Time from many different levels (transits, harmonics, etc) by comparison, expansion, division, contraction, etc... As science of Time there is not other as highly developed as astrology, it offers state-of-the-art technology for analyzing the quality of time.

As an art is also unique consisting in the interpretation by the human mind of a highly complex universal harmony in which our lives are involved and wrapped in...

Just a few opinions,

Adriana
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 06:36:14 PM by Adriana » Logged
Ray Murphy
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 07:06:23 PM »

Ray:

Very interesting the Astrodatabank's results, they add more confidence in astrological statistical research, and in Gauquelin's results too.

Here's something else of interest:
MOON IN SECTOR 10 FOR ASTROLOGERS - (all the astrologers in Astrodatabank)
As you can see from the second graph, the trend is not disappearing after 2000+
samples and a few centuries. This Moon in the Sector 10 also corresponds roughly
with Moon in 3rd House Placidus. I noticed that the category of "Psychologist"
scored very close to astrologers when 100+ categories were compared.



Here's a few more links concerning the ADBank category of "Long Life > 80 years"

MOON IN 7TH GRAPH - LONG LIFE
http://users.tpg.com.au/raymurph//Long_Life_Moon_in_7th.gif

MOON IN 7TH TREND - WHEN BIRTHS ARE IN SEQUENCE
http://users.tpg.com.au/raymurph//LONG_LIFE_over_80_yrs_MO_in_7th_Placidus.gif

SARI'S CONFIRMATION OF MOON IN 7TH (Small PDF)
http://users.tpg.com.au/raymurph//The_Moon_in_houses.pdf

All of my images are public domain

Ray
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 07:08:41 PM by Ray Murphy » Logged
BigMac
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 12:20:58 AM »

Adriana,

Quote
Gravity, relativity, synchronicity... these are all very unique scientific models that cannot be physically modeled, but logically inferred instead

Synchronicity is not a "scientific model" in the sense of gravity or relativity. The mathematics of Newtonian gravity will allow you to position satellites in space or travel to the moon and back - by calculation, using the appropriate physical model. Newtonian mechanics are an approximation to General Relativity, but still useful in these 'local' situations.

As Ray alluded to earlier, synchronicity is not an explanatory model but an attempt to formalise certain apects of Jung's personal experience. Both Astrology and synchronicity belong to areas of experience which science has yet to illuminate. As such, I could rearrrange your thread title to "Astrology as expanatory model for synchronistic correlations" - an equally sensible statement and, in my view, a much better bet.

Henry.


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James Williams
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 03:04:30 PM »

This reminds me of several books I read back in the 80's, linking Jung's concept of synchronicity--an acausal connecting principle--with astrology, by such well-known astrologers as Liz Greene, Alice Howell, Erin Sullivan, etc.  Thank you, Adriana, for bringing this up again...
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"The message blazoned across the heavens at the moment of birth is not meant to emphasize fate, but to arouse man's will to escape from his universal thralldom. What he has done he can undo. None other than himself was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now prevalent in his life."
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 01:48:42 AM »

Hello Adriana,

Re: "Astrology needs a coherent philosophic and scientific framework."

I think that it (in some sense already) has a coherent philosophic framework, but that it doesn't actually NEED a scientific one.

Re: "As an art is also unique consisting in the interpretation by the human mind of a highly complex universal harmony in which our lives are involved and wrapped in..."

That isn't a complete sentence.  Can you complete that train of thought?

I am reading your comments with interest.

My problem with the Gauquelin's research is (as far as I understand it) concerned with individual factors.  This seems to be pretty much a dead end in terms of usefulness, since astrologers don't really work that way.  The process (imo, when done correctly) involves an astrologer pulling together VARIOUS factors and making some type of "judgement" based on that...and often through an INTUITIVE type of process.

If we hypothetically "allow" that Moon in the 3rd is 20% higher than chance would normally indicate for Astrologers, what have we really learned from this?  How useful is this info?   If I am reading for someone and they have Moon in the 3rd, do we know they will be an astrologer?   Of course not.  If they are an astrologer, do we know that their Moon would be in the 3rd?   Still not.

Mathematically, if the chance levels for Moon in the 3rd were 1 in 12 and our "Astrologers" group gives 20% more than what we expect; then we could read for several people with the Moon in the 3rd and not pick up any additional Astrologers!    ie. no useful correlation, since we are dealing with SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS WITH SPECIFIC CHART DYNAMICS and the "study" was done in the GENERAL CASE and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE of other factors.  (ie. contradictory to normal astrological operating procedures)

Looking at individual "portions" of a very complex and varied system should logically be seen as not really INDICATIVE of THE STATE of the ENTIRE SYSTEM.  In short, analysis of individual factors is very much pursuing astrology with a cookbook mentality of this particular position MEANS such and such.  

Let's flesh this out just a bit more through analogy.  Let's say that Bob grows up and joins the Army and we are looking back over his life at WHY he joined the Army.  Chances are, it was a GROUP OF FACTORS (just like Astrology functions!) that led to that decision...

1. His Father was decorated military and he hopes to shore up his own self-worth by success in the same area as his Father who routinely ignored Bob's accomplishments.

2. Being smaller of stature, he was often bullied and so his military "direction" gives him a chance to build up his own courage and re-prove to himself that he is no less of a man.

3. Not being able to find meaningful employment in his hometown and not having the means to go elsewhere, he sees the military as one of his last hopes at "ever amounting to anything."

4. His best friend, John, already joined the military and writes to Bob often with the various places he has been and of his experiences there, which inspires Bob to want to follow suit.

5. .....

6. .....

7. .....

You get the idea.

Now, with ALL of these factors taken into consideration, it might be icepick-to-the-forehead obvious that Bob would be "inclined" to join the Army.  MILLIONS of people with any ONE of these particular circumstances NEVER find their way into the military.  Because of that, looking at any ONE particular factor takes us NOWHERE in the "will he join the Army?" question, since the probabilities are so small for that one factor, ISOLATED.

Another analogy might help.  If we have an old county bridge that is falling apart because of woodrot, crumbling support columns, accumulated minor vandalism and drastically increased usage in recent years... looking at any ONE of those factors BY THEMSELVES might NOT indicate anything to be immediately concerned about.  Taking all those circumstances together can make it painfully obvious!   (Again, just like Astrology!)

Analyzing Astrology through methods that don't relate to how we actually DO Astrology seems relatively pointless or at the very least, WAY OVER-RATED.

If I read for 120 people and 10 of them have Moon in the 3rd, which ones are Astrologers?

That's what I thought.

OD'dOnLifeItself
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 05:27:07 AM »

Adriana,

I read your article link 'On Synchronicity' of C. Brennan.  Thank you both.

one particular line within hit me "like ice out of the box."

Page 3:  "
  • where the intentionality, and subjective ability of the practitioner is wrapped up in the observable celestial phenomena..."

My natal Mars understands this.  Tr. Sun yesterday was at the "attach" or at ache Sabian description.  Natal Sun co-rules 8th, in which resides Uranus in septile.

Mars-Cancer (Arroyo) desires to "envelop" or to contain, even within a thought.

Recent example:

Night before, dreamt of two incidents.  One, I'm comforting an older man with a fever, in great belly pain.  The other, a girl attending a religious ritual in First Communion attire, yet tears in her dress and holes in her shoes.

Next morning, I go to the mailbox, and two of my friends happen to show up.  Talking, one shares an ER trip last night, with severe gall bladder attack and high fever.  The other says he's going shopping today, to get new clothes, and then attend a First Communion celebration.  I look down and notice holes in his shoes!

Now, this correlation occurred when we were separate, yet share a close sympathy for both.

thinking about Henry yesterday, and his post using the word "wrapper" also brought up new discoveries that resonate with the transiting Sun.

Augustin' Lara's wife of one year, Maria had a shared spiritual bond with him.  If we think of the Vertex "clothing the flesh," then why not the Spirit? as the focus

His music (one of three loves), forte seemed to be of the caberetera genre, which means "small container for Art"), small space, in which he needed to create.  However, within this framework,  his imagination could be bigger, and through a song, be seen as one described to him.  And Maria needed a Grand Entrance, a big door, as the songs for her reflected.  It is where he placed the spotlight.

A complex soul, he was, in a wrecked/broken body.  Not seen individually, cleverly enmeshed in his work.  His love of Veracruz, "true cross" must have been a link to the 'cosmic sympathy.'  And, he could wrap others up within it.

Maria, goes on to enjoy thoroughbreds, marrying into a candy fortune, wrapped up in something altogether different.

The caberetera is his overarching theme, or shared space, a story of a young woman's fall from grace, due to lack of opportunity and demise...I equate that with 15 Gemini/Sagittarius, personally.  That's where I fall, exacly within his chart, opposite his Pluto Rx.

Studying both charts of Augustin' and Maria are fascinating. Also, he lost his mother early.  Some of the best homes for 'eminence' have a philosophical father within them.  He did not.  His Mom carried thename Aguiree of the Pine.  another synchronicity personally, I won't go into.

I'm not really crazy, but share this, in hope that some can be seen as an aide to healing from past, forward, into future.  I know I operate too, in a strange form of convergent evolution, and I was literally 'wrapped up' at birth, fitting the term 'caberetera.'

I'm sorry I don't have much science to add.
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Lura
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 05:44:46 AM »

Adriana,

One thing I forgot to mention.  A little correlation with a particular fixed star I find very sensitive.

The Alpha Star of Pisces, the "Knot of Heaven" for it is synonymous with tales of romance, message carrier, and a particular point in time where unity is made/broken.

I think Augustin' if I remember, has Pallas here, and highly creative in significance.  Supercharged in a way.  Personally, powerful in recognition of a dream as a child, affective memory imprinted.
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