astrology - what works and what doesn't

[james m]

hi alice - you hit a home run out of the park on that one! i liked this line of yours..
"The longer I study and apply my knowledge to real life (40 years to date) the more I realize how little I know."
the saying in the tao teh ching is "the further you go, the less you know"...  maintaining an open mind, essential to learning is not something everyone is inclined towards... thanks for your comments and hope you can continue to share your astrological observations specifically with regard to age harmonics as i remain uncertain about their usefulness..

bigmac - i like how you've articulated a broader concept of 'self' here... could it be that this is coming out of outer planets being tied more directly with inner planets in a persons chart? that would be my first thought..

[DGordon]

How astrology does not work for humans:
1. It does not show sex
2. It does not show race
3. It does not show ethnicity

Perhaps these areas are of a more personal karma and not the conditional kind that astrology is about.

There seems to be an impetus to a greater realization of the systemic oneness of life; it is called "suffering".

[Franco]

To add to Kathys excellent post, I have only these few words to contribute.

Like the old political cliche, You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time

With regard to astrology technique:  Some techniques work some of the time, but no technique works all of the time.

[Kathy Rose]

Let me add one thing about Free Will and Choice .... if free will weren't part of the equation, then people with identical horoscopes would manifest the same thing.

We have CHOICE as to how much of our potential we manifest.... and how we RESPOND to the planetary energies. We are bathed in planetary "vibes" during a solar arc or transit - and we have some degree of choice as to how we utilize the energy.

Two identical horoscopes will be triggered by a transit and may manifest two totally different realities.

This is my opinion - and it's near and dear to my heart. It's what works for me and checks out with my view of the Universe. I don't push my opinion on others - nor do I insult people if their view is different.

Kathy

[DGordon]

Kathy,

I have never come across identical horoscopes for two individuals, since most twins have a time difference for first breath, so I cannot prove your premise. Have you an example for real? Is it even possible?

Mark Twain's "The Prince and the Pauper" is a nice story, as is "The Man in the Iron Mask" by Alexandre Dumas.

,Daniel

[Kathy Rose]

Even if we have two charts that are close to identical -- let's say two babies born in the same hospital within a minute or so of each other (same Asc, same MC).

My point - behind each horoscope is a SOUL. Whether reincarnation is your approach or not.... just because two horoscopes look the same (or very, very close) - the same result will not be guaranteed. I believe this is true on the natal level as well as it pertains to cycles from planetary activity. The imprint from the parents make a difference, the environment from childhood, and the choices made along the way.

I've seen this recently with the dynamic planetary activity going on now and for the last year (Pluto, Uranus, Saturn and Jupiter). I've heard from clients with natal Sun activated by this intense configuration who were nearly suicidal - experiencing devastating loss and hardship - literally wanting their experience on earth to be over. I contrast this to other clients with the Sun at the same degree who moved forward in every aspect of their life - experiencing success and expansion with this transit. This is not a judgment about how they experienced the transit.

My spiritual teacher said: "You can't teach TRUTH. Each person's truth is relative to their unique frame of reference. What you can teach are techniques that help people to find their own truth. Strive always to be exploring "truth finding," not just "truth knowing."

I think this is true for astrology. I find relevance with the system of astrology. The techniques and measurements I use allow me to have meaningful dialogue with my clients..... that's the point.

Kathy

[james m]

kathy - i like what you are saying here... i have thought about this some too with regard to birth charts that seem very similar.. i think the imprint from parents, environment from childhood and etc do make a difference... i find the connections between parent and child quite fascinating to consider and of course even if 2 charts were close to identical the role parents play would be an important backdrop to all this... i don't think we respond equally to all parts of a chart.. perhaps cross overs with parent/child might explain some of this better... what role does heredity play in all of this and can one see this in the cross overs in the parent/child relationship? i think we can, but i am getting off track... thanks to both you and daniel for making some comments here that have been thought provoking and interesting..

[DGordon]

I suggest Astrology does not work with soul or reincarnation, because they are concepts that have no basis in astrology and which are imposed from other religious systems to co-opt astrology. No soul. No ego. Just conditions. Subsume religion into astrology if you like, but astrology works without deities, nevertheless.

I can agree that there is rebirth, but that is different from reincarnation. Even our breath contains molecules of what George Washington breathed, so literally everyone is everything.

I suggest we are stuck somewhere between freewill and predestination, but we are still figuring out the metric. That fourth dimension of time is tricky being so relative and all.

,Daniel
 

[james m]

daniel, i'm not sure why you say concepts on the soul and reincarnation have no basis in astrology... i think they do for this reason - these are concepts that have been around for a long time and seek a home in all areas where people are looking for a greater understanding on life in general.. i think that is what we are doing with astrology, or at least i can say that for myself!!

james k- thanks for sharing that story.. i enjoyed it!

[DGordon]

James,

Could you refer me to a definition of these terms as used in western modern astrology? What objective astrological conditions refers to these concepts? Define your terms!

As close as I can determine, the ancients referred to "anima" or breath as "soul", but it is religiously based, and ends at death of the form. It is an equivocation and incorrect reasoning to say that because a concept has been around a long time, therefore it is valid. These days, the vague definition of soul or reincarnation is more like some obsolete religious verbal artifact that has become some catchall word for some vague emotional projection.

I think that if one is going to be a religious guide or minister or preacher, then be up front about that limit. Not all astrologers are religious ministers, nor do they want to be. I was for four years in NOLA (New Orleans). Maybe we need some tent revival meetings on the levee this coming UAC. However, those who are eclectic in their promotion of beliefs to suit their clients might also be guilty of pandering.

Perhaps astrology is better off for acceptance by educated and monied people if there is less religiosity, yet many an astrologer's paying clientele of poor and ignorant women 20-40 need exactly that. What to do?

"Must have been the right place, but the wrong time." as Dr. John might say.

,Daniel

[james m]

daniel - thanks for this conversation.. i see your point and i agree with you.. i re-read your comments and believe i understand the basis for them..  you have made some really good comments here that i haven't responded to, but the one i really liked from earlier is this:There seems to be an impetus to a greater realization of the systemic oneness of life; it is called "suffering"."

is it a situation of astrology verses philosophy and where do these 2 separate? i think on some level it is.. suffering may not have an immediate connection to astrology either, but it is a part of the human experience and people seek to find ways to address it in the various areas of their work and involvement... astrology seems to have come up with the idea that suffering is somehow connected to saturn.. perhaps it is, and perhaps it isn't... does suffering have an astrological dimension to it? i think this is the same question as does the soul or reincarnation have an astro dimension to it.. i think it does, but i am being philosophical when i say this as i know not everyone shares the same interest or inclination towards philosophy..

fascinating to read your background in nola and of course i love dr john and saw him earlier this year when i was in n.o..

i think everyone has to work out a system where these philosophical ideas are either captured in some astrological angle or not depending on their perspective... the whole idea of karma and reincarnation would seem to be a neptunian or 12th house end of cycle type dynamic... and of course the indian culture traditionally has had a strong focus on these themes, so it is no surprise that it is captured in the astrology they practice... as for western astrology, i think it is constantly changing and being open or not to new and different approaches... that is my hope anyway! thinking about what does not work in astrology is very useful from my pov as well... this really was an important part of what motivated me to start the thread... is it a case of ''we see what we want to see?"" i think that with astrology it often is the case... i like the idea of separating the subjective element that we bring to astrology to something more objective and that is why i ask some of the questions that i do... sure, we are all free to arrive at the conclusions we do on why something does or doesn't work in astrology, but is their something more universal in it all that we get glimpses of from time to time, but that our 'see what we want to see' subjectivity blocks us from seeing more fully? i think this is the case.. thanks again for this conversation..

[DGordon]

James,
We are born, we age, we get sick and we die. The stuff in-between is transitory. There can be suffering on all levels of existence. I think it was Isabel Hickey who wrote that manifestation on lower elemental levels of existence is a function of unresolved conflicts or challenges on higher levels.

Perhaps freedom is the flip side to suffering. To a large degree we cause our own suffering due to the consequences of our own actions. We cause suffering to our physical, emotional and mental bodies, to our loved ones, to other beings. People try to set themselves up over others; they look to themselves and let their obligations go. Often, people are loathe to let go of the very thing which causes them suffering. It is the desire for material form that keeps the cycle of rebirth going. Part of that reason is based on the mind creating false dichotomies all the time, and then getting lost in the illusions of form. Astrology shows the complex of conditions and the potential consequences of positive and negative behavior to oneself and others over time. Perhaps that is where the will to be free can be applied.

I agree about Neptune being the generic principle for religion of the mystical kind, while Uranus has the throne for occultism. None of the planets by themselves can account for suffering, but they can delineate the conditions under which it can occur. What applies is the second law of thermodynamics - the tendency to disorder and to entropy.

I once heard that a religion is a philosophy that is lived. This could be a question of spontaneous realization of Oneness. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Take a look at www.xstarian.com for more.

,Daniel

[james m]

thanks for the beautiful comments daniel.. i will check out the site and get back to you on it... - james

[Don Borkowski]

Kathy, James, Daniel,
Glenn Perry addressed the issue of identical twins thus:  Same genetics, same horoscope, different souls.  Astrologer Louisa Gonzalez, who is skilled at many metaphysical methodologies, adds, "With the exception of George Foreman's kids, the names are different, too."

Don Borkowski

[Alice Portman]

Kathy, James, Daniel,
Glenn Perry addressed the issue of identical twins thus:  Same genetics, same horoscope, different souls.  Astrologer Louisa Gonzales, who is skilled at many metaphysical methodologies, adds, "With the exception of George Foreman's kids, the names are different, too."

Don Borkowski

I have an extensive article on the differences between twins, even if they are born only a couple of minutes apart here: http://aliceportman.com/?p=120

This is entirely original work with a lot of research on twins behind it.   I wrote an article on it for the FAA Journal and lectured on it to the Sydney Astrological Research Society.  During that talk people came with the charts of twins and I did on the spot 'blind' readings using this system.  To date all work I have done with this has met with 100% agreement.

Alice McDermott