astrology - what works and what doesn't

[Hudson Valley Astrologer]

Alice

Thank you for the link. That is a brilliant article.

Much appreciated

Tim

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Hello Alice,

Yours is the clearest explanation of the differences between twins (to be seen astrologically) that I have read...

I have twin girls that were born 3 minutes apart.  (Yeah, I was there with timepiece like a good astrologer)   

In their normal natal charts (using normal systems), 3 minutes difference in time makes for two charts almost exactly the same.  Using methods that rely on precision birthtimes, there are, of course, differences to be seen as to WHEN various events might transpire, but no real way to distinguish between them in terms of their natal charts.

If I have done this correctly, your "Dwad" method shows quite a difference between the two.  (By the way, they are extremely different people!)   Below are both charts, merely to demonstrate how two people born extremely close to each other, still have quite different charts using your presented method...



Thanks for another brilliant idea.  Might I ask what led you to study the dwadashamsha?

I would be curious (since you have experience with these methods) what "stands out" to your eyes between these two charts...


Peace

OD'dOnLifeItself

[pdw]

What an opportunity for field research in your own home, OD'd.  The first thing I noticed is that your girls have inherited your strong Cancer sensitivity, dramatically (Leo Moon).  Could you share their natal charts for comparison to the Dwad charts? 

Not knowing anything about Dwads, the emphasized MC-Mars-Mercury looks like an 'active' distinction here.  Have you researched related solar arcs to see if anything significantly different comes up between the two - for example, with SA Mercury = MC-Mars-ASC very early on?  With Aries on the 6th, possibly a health, fitness, or accident-related difference between the two?     

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Hello pdw,

Thank you for your reply...

Also, thanks for referring to my "Cancer sensitivity" instead of my Cancerian over-sensitivity.    

As for my daughters...sure...

Stephanie
9/18/92 12:16 am
Tucson, AZ

Jamie
9/18/92 12:19 am

Re: "Have you researched related solar arcs to see if anything significantly different comes up..."

Pardon my intrusion into this topic, but your question necessitates a brief sideline.  Isaac and I both went over quite a few lives, especially our own, using Solar Arcs across many major events...and though we did find some amazing correspondences, there were two distinct problems.  The first was that they weren't reliable in the normal sense of the word.  Some major events have starkly contrasting Solar Arcs (planetary symbolism) to the event.  The second is that if we use orbs that are large (1° in a directed system moving approx. 5' per month is large), allow contrary symbolism to the inherent nature of the planets relative to the event, and allow house rulership networks to tie it all together, then it is very likely that "corresponding" Solar Arcs will be found merely by chance.  ie. coincidence   If we throw in midpoints as normally are used in Solar Arcs, we have added 624 more points on the ecliptic (78 points with their 8th harmonic counterparts).  [I realize we don't use midpoints in which the activating planet is a part, so that the number is actually a bit less]   The problem is that the corresponding aspects will tend to exist whether the correct birthtime is used or not.

In earlier times, I would have looked at each of the twin's life and found Solar Arcs that line up with events and had a self-deceiving "aha" moment.  Now, I realize that chance will likely have "corresponding" planets in aspect, whether we take them from the actual birthtime or whether they are randomly thrown about the zodiac.

Alexander Marr studied MANY obscure methods... many of them, Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns, precessed Lunar Returns, Secondary Progressions, Topocentric Primary Directions, transits, etc. were found to be reliable.  As for Solar Arcs, based on the longitudinal movement of the Sun along the ecliptic, he said they were a completely fictitious system.  Please note his choice of expression.  It was not that they were "somewhat unreliable" or "need to be approached with caution", etc.  "Completely fictitious" does not leave a lot of room for translation.   [Please contemplate the idea that if we are likely to (by chance) have correctly themed planets in aspect, then we will keep thinking we are seeing something special (the aspect), when in fact, mathematical probabilities indicates we are likely to no matter what.]   Additionally, try and use Solar Arcs to blind-rectify a birthchart with known (but hidden) birthtime.  You will likely come to appreciate more what I have just said...

So, the short answer to your question, is no, I haven't really examined their Solar Arcs as I don't find the system reliable.  Additionally, I have very few dated events from their lives in order to do a very thorough examination.  Still, I have a few... we could look at it publicly, if you'd like.  Unlike some, I am open to changing my mind, if there's enough proof.    

Take care, pdw

Peace

OD'd

[pdw]

Thanks for the data, OD'd.  Your preferred techiques are duly noted. 

Best ahead

[james m]

alice - thanks for the link to your article on twins..  it is a good way to get at some of the differences by focusing on them this way...

as i understand them, these vedic or indian systems are all based off harmonics, but they aren't communicated this way directly..instead they have different names like navamsha,dashamsha, and etc.... i believe the 'dwad' is something much the same where the cycle of the 12 signs is caught inside of one 30 degree wedge... i thought i would mention this as i think it is important that the connections between what indian astrologers have been looking at and what harmonics is more generally needs articulating..

od'd - regarding the use of solar arc directions i have noted a lack of clarity on their use by many astrologers who are otherwise quite professional in many respects.. i'm going to do a separate post on this when i get a chance.. noel tyl has devoted some of his energy to writing a good long book on this subject..perhaps you have read it? primary directions are another more generalized name for them... one can direct the ascendant, midheaven, vertex or any other point too, but the sun seems to have special significance in an astrology chart worth exploring which is essentially what 'solar' arcs are... secondary progressions were all the rage when i was first learning about different predictive techniques in astrology back in the 70's... as a consequence i and many others overlooked what i consider a much better system of prediction.. however, without a proper understanding of how they are used they will be essentially useless to a novice or seasoned astrologer unfamiliar with a few basic guidelines around their use...

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Hello james m,

Re: "primary directions are another more generalized name for them..."

Solar Arcs are directions, but they aren't primary.  Solar Arcs are moving along the ecliptic, in longitude.  Primary Directions are based on the ROTATION of the Earth.

They are also different in usage. 

I had a miraculous wedding to the woman of my dreams on Dec 3, 2000.

In Solar Arcs, that is expressed by Venus_4,11 semisquare Neptune₉ {???} in the Radix chart (the ONLY Solar Arc within three months either side of the event.)  Or, in the Epoch chart, by MC square Mars₁₀ {???}, which is three months before the event.  (also the ONLY Solar Arc within three months either side of the event)

In Topocentric Primary Directions, it is expressed by the Moon's conjunction to the Node (once-in-a-lifetime aspect, correct to the day---not to imply that they normally mature in so precise of a timeframe) in the Epoch.  Or, in the Radix chart, by the Ascendant conjunction to Venus (once-in-a-lifetime aspect, within 2 days)

The two systems are indeed quite different...



Peace

OD'dOnLifeItself

[james m]

od'd

thanks for your comments and in particular pointing out that solar arc directions are not primary directions.. you are correct on that.. they are secondary directions... it motivated me to read up on the distinction..  here is an interesting astrologer doing some interesting work that some might enjoy reading about.. http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimVanDamArticles.htm

regarding the timing of your marriage - thanks for sharing that.. it seems some of the solar arc directions for your marriage have been left out...   i don't think of solar arc directions as a stand alone system and use them in conjunction with transits.. for anything pertaining to marriage in your personal chart i'd consider saturn as it rules the descendant in your chart, while also being in the 8th house area of the chart which i associate with the legal contract of marriage... this is covered by saturn and uranus as i see it.. venus is in a wide conj to uranus and a wide opposition to saturn natally.. venus always seems to have bearing on relationships in general so i'd include it in all this too.. neptune is part of a strong square to saturn, while being part of the important grand trine in your chart which includes sun/jupiter/neptune... perhaps i complicate things more then necessary by pointing this out.. nothing is ever simple, and really all the factors of a chart contribute to the different areas of a persons life... everything is bound up together. separating is necessary though for the purpose of highlighting certain events / actions / doings... perhaps others here would appreciate your birth data which i managed to figure out off your website..

the transits for this date have uranus at 17 aquarius 30, which is where solar arc sun is 17 leo 45.. transiting saturn is at 26 taurus 21 conj natal mars 25 taurus 57... solar arc venus is at 25 virgo 45 120 to these placements.. solar arc venus is also 45/135 the natal neptune/saturn square... meanwhile solar arc uranus is at 4 libra 37 - 45 to natal venus.. perhaps most interesting of all is solar arc jupiter at 19 aries 23 - on the same degree as natal venus and having been square your natal ascendant for the general year prior to this event... i believe you're married to a person from another country and wonder if this happened over the course of your or her traveling? there is also a very close solar arc midheaven at 8 taurus 01  (coming back to taurus and it's ruler venus) which is exactly trine pluto at 8 virgo 05.. now whether mars or pluto rules the 5th house/sign scorpio, so much is going on in this chart with the solar arcs it becomes a challenge to know what to stay most focused on!!!

i find the idea of working with epoch charts very challenging for these reasons: i am not inclined to think we can get at the '''exact''' time of conception.. i know this could be an opportunity to comment on polaris (again) but frankly i find the idea of having to resort to such a system at least 2 or 3 steps removed from what one can get via other astro techniques.. my approach is to consider transits with the aid of solar arc directions.. if you find relying on epoch charts a useful way to go - all the power to you on that! thanks again for pointing out your marriage date james (od'd) as i appreciate the opportunity to examine it more closely...

[Alice Portman]

Hello Alice,

Yours is the clearest explanation of the differences between twins (to be seen astrologically) that I have read...

I have twin girls that were born 3 minutes apart.  (Yeah, I was there with timepiece like a good astrologer)   

In their normal natal charts (using normal systems), 3 minutes difference in time makes for two charts almost exactly the same.  Using methods that rely on precision birthtimes, there are, of course, differences to be seen as to WHEN various events might transpire, but no real way to distinguish between them in terms of their natal charts.

If I have done this correctly, your "Dwad" method shows quite a difference between the two.  (By the way, they are extremely different people!)   Below are both charts, merely to demonstrate how two people born extremely close to each other, still have quite different charts using your presented method...



Thanks for another brilliant idea.  Might I ask what led you to study the dwadashamsha?

I would be curious (since you have experience with these methods) what "stands out" to your eyes between these two charts...


Peace

OD'dOnLifeItself

Hi OD'd

It is important to include the MC IC and antiVertex in all harmonic systems, including the duad system, so I have attached in PDF their charts ( I wish I could work out how to show charts the way you do, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work with me).

Stephanie has duad Jupiter-IC in trine to duad Ascendant.  Jamie has duad Mercury-Mars square duad Ascendant and quincunx duad MC as well as duad Pluto, the ruler of the duad Ascendant, in trine.   This would make considerable differences in the way they present and express themselves.

In addition Stephanie has duad Vertex in Leo, conjunct duad Moon, giving a public orientation and perhaps destined contacts with Lunar types of people.    Jamie has duad Vertex in Virgo, giving a different destiny orientation - more towards a technical or service orientation.    Jamie has duad Neptune conjunct duad IC, giving a different home orientation to Stephanie with her duad Jupiter conjunct duad IC.

Jamie has her duad MC conjunct natal Descendant, bringing an element of partnership into her career focus.  In addition it is conjunct natal Uranus, suggesting a technical or unusual orientation to her career.

... and so on.

I have worked with duads in the Tropical system for most of my astrological life.  I found  a little book called "The 144 doors of the Zodiac" by Thyrza Escobar in 1975 and that stimulated me to a great deal of research,    since then I have included this system in most of my work.    I first officially presented the Duad System from a relationship point of view during a year long Relationship Course I ran in Sydney in 1994.

I got the idea that as the duads were a little mini zodiac within each sign of the zodiac, then duad degrees would probably work.  For years I calculated them by hand and calculator and this was very time consuming.  Graham Dawson of Esoteric Technologies took note of my request to incorporate duad charts in Solar Fire, and when he was setting up the Vedic section of Solar Fire he made it possible to calculate Tropical duads as well.

This opened the door for research on families that was not possible previously and has led me to formulate a 'genetic astrology' process that is truly fascinating.

I first got the idea of using duad charts to determine the differences in twins after a friend who raced greyhounds asked me if I could determine a winner from a litter of puppies that was about to be born.  I got him to mark each puppy and record the time of birth.  The puppy with duad Jupiter conjunct duad MC was a big winner in races.  I realised that if this system was so accurate for multiple births in animals, then it would be accurate for multiple births in humans.

Only after many years of working with Tropical duads did I think to check them out in the Vedic system.  I have barely used them in this system as I find the Tropical system is so accurate.

Hopefully I will be able to soon publish a book on The Duad System, where you can see the number of ways it can work very, very accurately.

Alice McDermott

[Starz]

One thing in the 2 twin charts is that from a sidereal view the Part of fortune,vertex and antivertex  are in different signs and houses for each daughter.

[james m]

alice - thanks for your post on the use of dwads to answer the question on the reading of twins charts.. i admire your flexibility in not getting stuck on having to do this in sidereal as well... that shows a degree of independence often missing in the astrology community.. i was reminded of this recently when the conversation veered onto t pat davis's work who was also a trailblazer...

i wish you every success with a book on this... james m

[Alice Portman]

alice - thanks for your post on the use of dwads to answer the question on the reading of twins charts.. i admire your flexibility in not getting stuck on having to do this in sidereal as well... that shows a degree of independence often missing in the astrology community.. i was reminded of this recently when the conversation veered onto t pat davis's work who was also a trailblazer...

i wish you every success with a book on this... james m

Hi James M

I am not at all sure that the origin of duads was through Vedic astrology, I think their history goes so far back that they are part of the origin of both forms of astrology.  They have a very, very long tradition in tropical astrology, but for some reason they seemed to have gone out of fashion lately.

There really is nothing new under the Sun!  I was sure that my discovery of the duad degrees and duad charts was quite original until I read some work on a medieval astrology site, where they described ancient astrologers doing just as I was  - calculating the duad degrees by hand and putting them in a chart.

Thank you for your good wishes.  I suffer from a strange writers block that seems to now be intermittently lifting.  I find the work I have done both fascinating and very precise, so I hope others will enjoy the book.

Alice McDermott

[james m]

alice,
regarding the duads and a question of their origin, i agree.. i was trying to find the spot where i read on duads or dwads in john addeys book 'harmonics in astrology' which i am 3/4's of the way through but couldn't find the quote i was looking for...

however, from page 121 harmonics in astrology by john addey: "the general principle itself (harmoncis) is not at all new for not only is it embodied in the shodasavargas, for example, of hindu astrology, but to give another instance, the recent introduction in the west of the so called 90 degree dial and the 45 degree dial, popularized i believe by the ebertin school of astrology, is simply an application of this principle.. in other words the 90 degree dial (in which the planetary ppositions in each 90 degree are put into one circle) has the effect of showing relationships in the 4th harmonic and the 45 degree dial, similar in the 8th harmonic."

while one can't get the same positions in the 12th harmonic that are captured in the dwadashamsha, i note many similarities.. the degree position's are identical, but the signs are not necessarily the same.. the element remains the same for each, but the sign can differ.. the sun position is always identical however...

at any rate the approach you are taking overlapping the duad chart to the natal chart is one of the main techniques used in john addeys book, which if you have read it, it would make sense, but if not, you might find it more food for thought... thanks for the additional comments.. - james

[james m]

i don't profess to understand why some of these overlap perfectly and are the very same chart, while others have the same degree and but different sign... i am sure someone more technically minded would be able to explain it... 

vedic charts in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th harmonic are different then a straight 2nd, 3rd or 4th harmonic chart...but vedic charts for 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are identical to harmonic charts with these same numbers... vedic charts for 10 and 12 are different sign placements then charts for 10th and 12th harmonic, but all same degree position..  the 11th has 2 different charts in vedic- one identical to the 11th harmonic, while the other one same degree positions but different sign placement... interesting... is anyone well versed on this stuff and know why the differences in sign pop up, but otherwise most all of these vedic charts have the same degree positions, excluding 2nd, 3rd and 4th vedic charts? i'm curious!

[james m]

lorenzo - reading over your comments were helpful.. the duad/dwad/ or dwadashamsha chart that alice is working with puts emphasis on zero aries... a harmonic chart spreads it around evenly..  call me simple minded, but i think that is the major difference between some of these charts and how they are gotten...perhaps this explains the other shodasavargas that weren't the same as the harmonic numbers they are connected with.. the 'dwadashamsha'  puts emphasis on zero aries and is created out of this emphasis while the 12th harmonic chart doesn't include this special emphasis but treats the chart evenly without a start position...

example of how a harmonic chart gets the degree/sign positions using the 3rd harmonic as example...
a 3rd harmonic is essentially multiplying a degree position in the 360 by 3 and subtracting 360 (or multiples of 360) off this  number to get  back in the range  0-360... for example - 22 leo = 142/360... 142 x 3 = 426... 426 -360= 66... 22 leo is 6 gemini in the 3rd harmonic... etc. etc..
the dwadashamsha chart is not gotten this way...the 12 harmonic is gotten the same way as described in the above example... i find it interesting how the vedic equivalents for 5-9 harmonics are the same, but how they differ for 2-4 and 10-12, with the exception of one of the 2 11th ones... interesting stuff either way.. if i think about these things long enough i understand the basis for them... thanks for your perspective on these issues as well as the history behind some of this too.. james