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Author Topic: pattern recognition, mystic rectangles and etc  (Read 3674 times)
james m
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2010, 09:36:46 PM »

i choose the word 'flattening' as it reflects my view towards taking a circle (or cycles in general)  and putting it onto a 90 degree wheel... first day of summer, winter, fall and spring all translate as zero degree cardinal, but if we only consider 0 degree cardinal without considering the broader context of what it is based on, the interplay of light and dark and all the meaning associated this is lost, or ignored...

i view the use of a 90 degree wheel like i do the use of a tool that serves a particular purpose... the 90 is very useful from a predictive p.o.v. but i don't think it tells us everything..   

thanks for your overview on numbers and harmonics... ratios as they relate to the balance or not of "light and dark", "day and night" are aspects of the 360 view that i consider as significant.. this view can't be gotten with the 90 degree wheel..  the analogy here might be different tools for different purposes...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 09:40:16 PM by james m » Logged
Alyza
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »


Lorenzo Smerillo you are bullying & killing a possible discussion!

Why not let everyone express their thoughts & remain respectful...?
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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2010, 03:41:52 AM »


- Astrologers usually don't find statistical significance in surveys because the wrong research methods are continually being used

I agree with that. You have made great strides in amply demonstrating this fact in, by and for your own studies.

If you had seen me quoting statistical significance for observations made in my studies,
your comment might be taken seriously. In reality I often go beyond statistcs and prove
that there was a consistent trend over time, because without that we have nothing.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 04:28:55 AM by Ray Murphy » Logged
Noel Tyl
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2010, 05:29:47 AM »


Gentlemen:

Here we go again: wordy flights into the minutiae of polemical dance.

Highly impractical; awkwardly esoteric; thoroughly temperamental.

Please:  What about thoughts and deductions that can illuminate astrological understanding and service to others?    --Not really a question, but a request.

Your agitations do not deserve or require a worldwide audience.  Just send e-mails to one another!!

Noel Tyl
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 05:32:46 AM by Noel Tyl » Logged

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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2010, 06:44:08 AM »

[.....]
i have a chart of sept 10 1923 beckum, germany that i have set for 12 noon in the absence of a birth time for him..
the first thing i pick up on the chart is the significance of uranus... whether one wants to include chiron in their astroview or not, uranus is clearly an outstanding emphasis to the chart from my pov given what i know about the work marc edmund jones has done previously on patterns.. i define the pattern as a bucket with uranus as handle planet but if one includes chiron, then chiron takes on a secondary role here as well.. see link for examples of jones patterns http://0.tqn.com/d/astrology/1/0/o/4/-/-/chartpatterns.jpg

i can't see this in a 90 degree chart... i can see other important details in the 90 chart, but i don't get this...

the basis much of how i view uri's life is one of a constant movement towards acknowledging and incorporating uranian energy into his life with all that this means... one can get into the astro details around this, but a study of his life however brief brings me to conclude the centrality of the symbolism to uranus on much of it.. i can't get this off a 90 degree wheel...

We can always find examples that seem to fit, but I wonder what would happen if
we tried to label people according to chart patterns before seeing their chart - as
we can do so often with planets in signs or aspect.

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james m
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2010, 09:47:25 AM »

hi noel - i am cultivating a conversation here that i think is as useful to others as it is to myself.. if you're referring to comments i'm making here i would appreciate if you refer to me directly. of course you can e mail me directly too if you'd like..  

lorenzo -  ideas around darkness and light have been used to articulate the polarities between saturn and the sun as well... cold and heat is another association that has been made between these 2 bodies.. i am not ready to toss out the distinctions between the seasonal position of the sun or planets in relation to a better understanding of astrology... i have never thought of using the 90 degree wheel exclusively.. it would seem to necessitate throwing out a lot of ideas i have come to associate with astrology...  

ray - i think your idea is a good one... i would start with the most simple marc edmund jones patterns if i was going to do this.. to me, the bucket and the bundle types are the most clear reads of all his patterns... an "ideal" bundle chart is one where all the planets are bundled into a small area where no oppositions are seen.. george w bush has a bundle chart.. one of the characteristics to a bundle chart is teh absence of a need to relate to others - something that oppositions in a chart in general signify...the bundle chart tends to emphasize a strong focus in one area of life where the person can approach that area with extreme focus and determination.. a bucket chart is where one single planet is off to the other side of the chart to all the others.. this singleton type planet becomes the handle to the rest of the chart...  of course these are my words on these 2 types and marc edmund jones or others might articulate these patterns a lot better then i..

i suppose one could do this with the other type of patterns i was initially referencing by mentioning mystic rectangle and etc.. the grand trine, grand square, kite, yod and etc. etc. are patterns that many astrologers are familiar with... bil tierney, tracy marks and others have done quite a bit of work articulating these different patterns and it has been my observation there is a lot of value in considering them when trying to understand a chart better..
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Ray Murphy
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2010, 11:14:14 AM »

[....]
ray - i think your idea is a good one... i would start with the most simple marc edmund jones patterns if i was going to do this.. to me, the bucket and the bundle types are the most clear reads of all his patterns... an "ideal" bundle chart is one where all the planets are bundled into a small area where no oppositions are seen.. george w bush has a bundle chart.. one of the characteristics to a bundle chart is teh absence of a need to relate to others - something that oppositions in a chart in general signify...the bundle chart tends to emphasize a strong focus in one area of life where the person can approach that area with extreme focus and determination.. a bucket chart is where one single planet is off to the other side of the chart to all the others.. this singleton type planet becomes the handle to the rest of the chart...  of course these are my words on these 2 types and marc edmund jones or others might articulate these patterns a lot better then i..

i suppose one could do this with the other type of patterns i was initially referencing by mentioning mystic rectangle and etc.. the grand trine, grand square, kite, yod and etc. etc. are patterns that many astrologers are familiar with... bil tierney, tracy marks and others have done quite a bit of work articulating these different patterns and it has been my observation there is a lot of value in considering them when trying to understand a chart better..

Unbiased research could be done if random people simply had their birth data tagged
for any obvious traits that they had - perhaps dozens. After that is done the charts
could be visually sorted into pattern categories and then a list of the most frequent
'tagging-words' could be displayed. This would mean that non-astrologers opinions in
books etc could be used, and if there was a correspondence between chart patterns
and traits, it might eventually be seen in the results.

I made a program a few years ago for handling all this - a bit like Astrodatabank on
steroids, but unlike ADB, it handles literally anything - any imaginable trait, event or
relationship.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 11:21:03 AM by Ray Murphy » Logged
Ray Murphy
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2010, 01:24:28 AM »

james m opined:
lorenzo -  ideas around darkness and light have been used to articulate the polarities between saturn and the sun as well... cold and heat is another association that has been made between these 2 bodies.. i am not ready to toss out the distinctions between the seasonal position of the sun or planets in relation to a better understanding of astrology... i have never thought of using the 90 degree wheel exclusively.. it would seem to necessitate throwing out a lot of ideas i have come to associate with astrology...

"The seasonal position of the sun or planets"  is somewhat of failed symbolic fantasy. Seasons on the Earth are caused by the tilt of the Earth as it orbits the Sun, not by the positions of the Sun nor certainly of the planets. When it is summer in the Northern hemisphere it is Winter in the Southern hemisphere. This is elementary. It is a fact which the old ancient astrologists had no idea of, hence they made silly statements which are demeaned. It is an idea which lacking any real foundation may be dispensed with except by fundamentalist astrologists and others who do not understand what they are talking about.

The 'polaritiies' [meaning what?] of Sun/Saturn is a Babylonian concept based on the length of time required for the sidereal return of Saturn (29 years). Of course the Babylonians had no conceptual model which entailed orbits, merely an observation of time.

The idea-groups of heat, cold, moist, dry; light and dark; etc., are part of the Aristotelian physics, which was demolished in the 17th century. To continue to use them is to be wrong, recalcitrant and to mire astrology in error and falsehood, no matter how comforting and easy that may be for one's personal confusion or entertainment.

Far from leading to a "better understanding of astrology" such errors lead only to the decomposition of the a long-dead cadaver. The stench is over-whelming.

Of course how one actually draws up an astrological chart will determine what one sees in it. The fictional patterns you wish to see are impossible on the chart forms used by Vedic astrologers, or any form used in Mediaeval Europe or Araby; they are irrelevant in Symmetrical astrological work which deals with 90, 45, 22.30 and even 30 degree charts or sorts.[**] They are non-existent in declination charting as well. The 360 chart is not an absolute, reality-based 'picture'; it is, as common as dust, it is true; but it is not a precise analytic tool of infallible rectitude. Indeed it may be an illusion.

Of course how closely one's charting method is to the underlining mathematical structure of planetary cyclic movement and dynamics will also determine how useful it is for analytic exposition. 360 is a dull knife.

Perhaps there is a primitive mind-set in some students of astrological lore which like to see little cartoons: when confronted with the chaos of the night sky, they make little cartoon figures and tell fairy stories about them. Ecco: the Zodi-circque. Now we find circles and dots on their charts: umbrellas and kites and curly-cues, and make up stories about them too!

Failing to achieve that one could play word-games with hot and cold and other associative entertainments. This really is fun, but not astrology, which is a mathematical analysis of planetary cycles, not pretty pictures, no matter what ex cathedra opinions to the contrary, based on false premisses, may indicate to the novice.

feliciter.

LORENZO SMERILLO




[**] "The character and destiny of man can be seen through the symmetry of the planets, not the aspects between the planets... that placement in the zodiac is of secondary importance relative to the dynamic interaction of the planets". --Gary Christen

We'll end up with another locked thread if we keep responding in any way to your unceasing stream of insults.

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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2010, 04:56:23 AM »

Hi Lorenzo,

I noticed that you quoted Gary Christen. Did you know that he was one of 12 astrologers who participated in a project which became a book called 'UNDER ONE SKY' by Rafael Nasser?

The cover of the book reads "Astrologers representing 12 different traditions read the same natal chart - blind!"

The other astrologers are Demetra George, Evelyn Roberts, Hadley Fitzgerald, John Marchesella, Ken Bowser, Kim Rogers-Gallagher, Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Ronnie Gale Dreyer, Steven Forrest, and Wendy Z. Ashley.

All have my respect for participating in the project and for allowing their interpretations to be published. However, the results might surprise you if you've not yet read it.

Kind regards,

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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2010, 06:53:34 AM »

Hi Lorenzo,

http://www.amazon.com/Under-One-Sky-Rafael-Nasser/dp/096491137X#_

You can preview some of the book through the link above. There are also a few reviews posted there.

Due to the nature of the book, it's difficult to summarise its statements. I can say that it is more of an investigation into the various astrological methods and reasoning of the astrologers involved than a tasteless competition for hits. From memory, many of the astrologers commented on the obvious limitations of blind readings, and even at times gave various options for their intended lines of questioning.

If you'd like to read it, I can post it to you.

Kind regards,

Forum Reader


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james m
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2010, 05:50:46 PM »

lorenzo, what type of characteristics do you give to saturn? do you think the word 'cold' could apply?

forum reader, thanks for the link.. the book - under one sky - looks like a worthwhile read which i would like to take on..
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james m
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2010, 10:44:55 PM »

lorenzo,

i was asking about saturn and the idea of coldness as it was what i had hypothesized about in my previous post with the mention of heat and cold and the sun and saturn polarity..

i agree with your understatement "There is no such thing as SA in isolation from the rest of the solar system bodies."

i might be under the misunderstanding that certain planets take on a more significant role when they are nearer the angles, or close to an important personal point such as the sun, moon or ascendant for example... from this vantage point a planet might take on a more prominent role in a persons chart and life then would otherwise be warranted...but, this is just my impression and i am certain your experience of astrology is different..

i think one of the differences i would probably make on saturn in relation to the planets further out in the solar system - uranus, neptune and pluto (that you note as being colder) is that unlike these 3 outer planets which i mostly view as energy representing forces much outside oneself, i see saturn in a murky area that often gets associated on a more personal level.. perhaps this is just a reflection on my own personal experience too, but it is a planet that seems to have great sensitivity in general and a particular sensitivity towards the cold, whether real or imagined... these are some of my thoughts.. these thoughts don't have anything to do with midpoint pictures...

do you think planets have characteristics that can be associated with certain personality traits? 
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