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Author Topic: Carl Payne Tobey's House System  (Read 2826 times)
Mike
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« on: December 11, 2010, 06:16:08 PM »

Hi all:

I'm curious if anyone out there aware of Tobey's house system and if they use it?

Thanks,

Mike
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Ken Haining
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 01:58:45 PM »

Hi Mike 

I am not familiar with Carl Payne Tobey's house system, although I did read his stuff years ago.  He wrote some really good sections at the end of some of Sydney Omar's yearly horoscope books, back in the 60s, which I wish I had today.  I was just a teenager, studying astrology on my own back then.  He was also friends with Grant Lewi.

Any place I can get a hold of his house system online to take a look at it?

Tobey was into the idea that Pluto ruled Aries, and that Mars ruled Scorpio.  Being Taurus, he was pretty stubborn about it.  I don't know of any other astrologers, other than a few of his students/advocates, who subscribe to that theory. 

Other than that, of his writings, which I have read, I thought he was quite an intelligent astrologer. I would have liked to have met him.  He passed away in 1980, as I recall. 

Ken


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Lopaka
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 06:41:42 AM »

Tobey used an equal house system measured from the MC. See Astrology of Inner Space, Ch. 5. When I began to work in astrology my teacher, Moby Dick, taught the equal house system, but began his measurements from the Ascendant. I have never used Tobey's houses, and have no comment on their utility. For years  I switched back and forth between that and the Placidian Houses, but Tobey's criticism and my early training caused me some conceptual difficulties with all unequal house systems. Perhaps that's one reason I finally gravitated to the whole house system.
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The law, in its infinite wisdom, forbids the rich as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
                    -Anatole France
Lura II
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 07:42:32 AM »

Mike,

I'm not an astrologer but when I started reading a little Tobey, I had a better grip on my navel ability of first sight.  Tobey meets Tesla.  He provides a "breath of fresh air" to a specific question posed by Tobey, relating to opinions and knowing.  I also like the fact that when I first picked up his book on "Inner Space,"  I immediately felt catapulted, as I did, when I first posted to Tim Neilson on this site.  I remember it as, his explaining the view of a Parent to Child; how the Parent is limited by his position on Earth.  Had he the grace of a position on another planet, such as the Moon?, he could handle life's synastry in a better way.  I had posed a question, as to the Child in a Streisand tune, "Children will Listen..."

Then, I read Tobey explain how inept we are at having those coordinates, on how to do just that ... Fly to the Moon! and back.  But, we can!

Tobey had his "bolt from the blue" when he was 26 years old.  He said it would never have happened had Jupiter not come along, and coincided near his planets in Taurus in 1928.  I can't speak for Tim, but I have almost felt certain, two people, on the same wavelength, can do just that.  And, Chiron was my entry gate into Astrology.  We both share the same ecliptical coordinates we were born under.

I also, share a parallel to this.  The other man, with similar Ascendant, as Tim, whom I felt the VERY SAME energy, born under the same ecliptical pressures.  If only Tobey were here, I am certain I'd want to sit and have a chat!*  He claimed "most prominent people get on AIR eventually," and I would have entertained the chance to see this truth.

I know I, in turn, could share what fear, and protectionism of emotions, as he called it, works at odds in one's life.  Understanding this, I would feel much better, to proceed.

more than you probably wanted, Mike?  I was born within an environment that experienced much 'poverty' on all fronts.

Thanks for getting me to revisit Tobey, once again.
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NaomiB
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 06:47:47 PM »

I'm a former student of CPT and know his work well.  He used the normal EH system, the same as Moby Dick.  All houses are the same degree as the Asc.  He has an excellent book, Astrology of Inner Space.  It explains the house systems.  He was in his early 70's when I wrote it so it was a culmination of his knowledge.  I wrote the forward and helped edit back in 1972.  If you care to learn more, visit learnastrologynow.com
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Lopaka
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 06:37:08 AM »

Naomi:

How fortunate that you elected to respond to this thread. As you will see I described CPT's house system as an equal house one measured from the MC. You posted that he measured his houses from the Asc; so I pulled out my old copy of Astrology of Inner Space to re-read Chapter 5. I note that he actually described his houses as measured from the Zenith, as distinguished from the MC; and he related the Ascendant directly to the Zenith.  Thank you for clarifying this mistake on my part. You are correct.
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The law, in its infinite wisdom, forbids the rich as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
                    -Anatole France
NaomiB
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2012, 04:24:17 PM »

As an additional note of clarification.  Carl Payne Tobey mis-used the term zenith.  Since his time, I have studied with Robert Hand and his whole sign houses.  He is a great researcher and a walking encyclopedia.

 The correct term for the equal house 10th is the nonagesimal.  This is exactly 90 deg away from the Ascendant.  It is not the same as the Midheaven.  The Midheaven is a geographic measurement from the equator to the geographic north pole.  The Ascendant is measured from the ecliptic.  When you mix geographic measurements with ecliptic measurements, there is a mess of trying to reconcile the differences (which is why there are so many house systems), especially near or above the Arctic Circle.  Above this point, the houses can collapse.  The MC does function but it is best to put it in the chart as a point, like a planet.
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Don Borkowski
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 04:01:48 PM »

I recall something about CPT feeling that the zodiac started with Leo; the next sign was Cancer, then Gemini, etc.  Was that what he said, or am I just imagining it?  I wish he had included some visual aids, so that many of us could understand what he was trying to communicate.  I thought he was just plain wacky, but he may have had something to say.

Don Borkowski
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 10:38:09 AM by Don Borkowski » Logged

True astrology is that which can be taught to other people who can then replicate the teachers' conclusions through their own effort.  --Don Borkowski in July 1983 issue of MERCURY HOUR
NaomiB
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 02:11:17 PM »

Well, I don't think he was crazy.  I have used his system for over 40+ years and it works.  Without explaining the sacred geometry reasons behind it, he basically re-discovered that house rulership started with Leo for the first and ended with Virgo for the 12th.  He believed that rulership of signs started with the Moon and Cancer and ended with Gemini and Mercury.

There are strong reasons for this and the evidence goes back to the Egyptian Coptic Period (300BC or so) that f have  verified  with my own personal research.  Some on this is on my website learnastrologynow.com.  Read some of the articles.  It is fully disclosed on the DVDs I created on Sacred Geometry.
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Don Borkowski
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 03:31:02 PM »

I wish he had included some visual aids, so that many of us could understand what he was trying to communicate. 

Yes, and I have used normal 20th-21st century astrology for 41 years.  Whenever I do something unconventional, I explain it so that others can learn from it.  Would you be so kind as to demonstrate CPT's methodology by using a commonly-known non-controversial horoscope?

Don
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True astrology is that which can be taught to other people who can then replicate the teachers' conclusions through their own effort.  --Don Borkowski in July 1983 issue of MERCURY HOUR
Thoreau
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 05:52:50 PM »

CPT had some work called the Arabic Chart.  I found it in a place called:  Anyara-Astrology: The Arabic Chart - Your Inner Self.  Alas this place no longer exists.  You can buy his book:  THE ASTROLOGY OF INNER SPACE, at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Astrology-inner-space-Payne-Tobey/dp/0912358246).

His disciple Naomi Bennet still keeps up his correspondence course and other information about him. 
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Don Borkowski
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »

Yes, I had that book, but it is in storage.  And the main reason I added to the thread is that I could not make heads or tails of his writings.  That's why I needed a physical example.  And only then I just might get it.

D.B.
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True astrology is that which can be taught to other people who can then replicate the teachers' conclusions through their own effort.  --Don Borkowski in July 1983 issue of MERCURY HOUR
SGFoxe
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 05:22:59 AM »

me 2, don -- had a great cover -- don't recall reading it, tho', probably scanned it, looking for an intriguing entrance into it. don -- i know you are princess ann's astrotwin, and as such probably have done your share of royalist charts -- are you wicked funny about wills kate and the family jewels? -- currently i'm ass over teakettle involved with the tudors ... working out a scenario -- on the murder of kit marlowe & the 17th earl of oxford. do you have any really interesting perspectives on this?
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Don Borkowski
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 09:34:02 AM »

No I don't, Sandra.  I'm not into the royals at all.  If anything, I have always been exceedingly resentful of Princess Anne.  Still, if you follow Noel's guidelines, it's obvious that Princess Anne has mother issues up the ying-yang, which can only be expected as she is the queen's daughter.  The late Joe de Mello was fascinated by the royals, but his enthusiasm never rubbed off on me.

Don B.
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True astrology is that which can be taught to other people who can then replicate the teachers' conclusions through their own effort.  --Don Borkowski in July 1983 issue of MERCURY HOUR
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