Author Topic: Paranoia  (Read 11268 times)

robynne

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2016, 02:26:36 AM »
Is it possible that rather than being paranoid, Bobbie Fischer had visual problems or disturbances after staring at chessboards and looking at patterning for so long? I'm seeing the t-square with Moon ruling the intercepted 12th square Pluto(5) square Mars (10). I wonder if he had a photographic memory? And Mercury-Uranus contacts do seem to have very fast mental processing.

You're welcome InStitches.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 02:32:16 AM by Robynne Black »

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2016, 05:13:45 AM »
Fischer was paranoid, but at times with good reason.  The Russians (i.e., Geller, Petrosian, and Keres) did conspire against him at the Candidates tourney in 1962, but at first--until the facts came out--people just thought that Fischer was a sore loser. 

Using Murray's language, Fischer had a very high psychogenic need for Dominance, Autonomy, Defendance, Achievement, and Aggression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray%27s_system_of_needs

And here is another excellent article on Fischer which shows more of his humane side...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/12/bobby-fischer-s-pathetic-endgame/302634/



"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2016, 06:51:59 AM »
And here's the chart of Fischer's mother, time not known...very revealing horoscopes for both his mother and father...
"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2016, 07:27:27 AM »
Interestingly, in Regina Fischer's chart, Venus turns retrograde just 3 days after she was born...while simultaneously, retrograde Neptune turns direct...

Extremely important...

"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

Offline Lopaka

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2016, 08:03:29 AM »
Fascinating discussion. Thank you all.  May I offer another candidate for your consideration:  James V. Forrestal, former Secretary of the Navy under FDR and Secretary of Defense under Truman.  He was born 2/15/1892 in what is now Beacon, New York.  Astrotheme gives the time as 14:30 hrs.  Ruler of his Virgo 3rd House is Mercury; His chart angles are strongly aspected by Venus, Saturn and Moon to the MC/IC; and by a tight Jupiter trine to the Sun.  In respect to this last aspect, he was raised a strict Roman Catholic. I am also struck by the very tight conjunction of Pluto and Neptune in the Aquarian 11th House, both in a loose separating opposition to Mars in Sagittarius.

Forrestal was treated for mental disorders and was ultimately admitted to the Bethesda Naval Hospital, where he committed suicide on 3/28/1948 by jumping from his hospital window. The official diagnosis was "depression", but rumors of paranoia circulated and still persist.  He had been targeted by prominent media figures like Drew Pearson and Jack Anderson. He was being investigated (for security reasons) by the FBI and others prior to his resignation as Sec. Def.   His suicide has also been linked by some to UFO phenomenon.  Perhaps that speaks more to those making the links than to Forrestal.

Finally, I offer the following material from the DSM V regarding the clinical definition of Paranoid Personality Disorder, for use in validating Noel's material quoted by James in the initial post in this thread.

Introduction
PPD (Paranoid Personality Disorder) is a DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition), diagnosis assigned to individuals who have a pervasive, persistent, and enduring mistrust of others, and a profoundly cynical view of others and the world (American Psychiatric Association, 2013). Paranoid Personality Disorder is referred to as a Cluster A personality disorder, which involve “ odd or eccentric “ behavior patterns (Esterberg, Goulding, & Walker, 2010). Persons with PPD are hypervigilant to physical, verbal or social attacks, and do not trust others, and therefore tend to have few if any close or intimate associates. They tend to be aloof, cold, distant, argumentative, and frequently complain. They may appear guarded and secretive, very rational, logical, and unemotional, but at times will be sarcastic, hostile, and rigid. Generally they have a difficult time getting along with others People with Paranoid Personality Disorder tend to do poorly with group activities and collaborative projects. They will be highly critical of others, but will respond to criticism of themselves with hostility or defensiveness. Paranoid Personality Disorder is a non-psychotic disorder, in that it is a discrete diagnosis involving one's dysfunctional and maladaptive personality characteristics, rather then a thought or mood disorder. Persons with Paranoid Personality Disorder may develop brief psychotic reactions under stress, but by definition, a brief psychotic episode is discrete and does not endure. Paranoid Personality Disorder is not amenable to antipsychotic medications as there are not typically gross deficits in reality testing, and the paranoid thought content and beliefs are typically-non bizarre. PPD is also not regarded as a result of trauma, as the perception of being unsafe in the world which is typical of persons with PTSD (Post -traumatic Stress Disorder) is of a different quality and etiology.
Symptoms of Paranoid Personality Disorder
According to the DSM-5, there are two primary diagnostic criterion for Paranoid Personality Disorder of which criterion A has seven sub features, four of which must be present to warrant a diagnosis of PPD:
Criterion A is: Global mistrust and suspicion of others motives which commences in adulthood. The seven sub features of criterion A are:
1.The person with PPD will believe others are using, lying to, or harming them, without apparent evidence thereof.
2.They will have doubts about the loyalty and trustworthiness of others,
3.,They will not confide in others due to the belief that their confidence will be betrayed.
4.They will interpret ambiguous or benign remarks as hurtful or threatening, and
5. Hold grudges,
6. In the absence of objective evidence, believe their reputation or character are being assailed by others, and will retaliate in some manner and
7. Will be jealous and suspicious without cause that intimate partners are being unfaithful.
Criterion B is that the above symptoms will not be during a psychotic episode in schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or depressive disorder with psychotic features,
A qualifier is that if the diagnostic criteria for PPD is met prior to the onset of Schizophrenia, it should be noted Paranoid Personality Disorder was premorbid (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
Onset
The DSM-5 notes that Paranoid Personality Disorder features may be apparent in childhood and adolescence. Children may act strangely, resulting in teasing (American Psychiatric Association, 2013). This is an interesting note, in that it raises questions of premorbid causality. A child who exhibits abnormal behaviors and who is rejected by peers, may learn not to trust, and may become suspicious of others motives. This could be a contributing factor in the development of paranoid personality.
Prevalence
According to the DSM-5, the prevalence of Paranoid Personality Disorder is 2.3 % to 4.4 % of the US population, and is more frequently diagnosed in males. (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
Risk Factors
The DSM-5 indicates that a family history of Schizophrenia, or persecutory type delusional disorder are risk factors for Paranoid Personality Disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
The law, in its infinite wisdom, forbids the rich as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
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Offline James Williams

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"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

robynne

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2016, 10:49:00 PM »
Quote
Fischer was paranoid, but at times with good reason.

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Finally, I offer the following material from the DSM V regarding the clinical definition of Paranoid Personality Disorder, for use in validating Noel's material quoted by James in the initial post in this thread.

Thanks Lopaka and Jim, true, there is a fine line though, between being paranoid and being perceptive, and sometimes the paranoia is based on some truth. If he was used to his opponents continually trying to 'psyche him out' thats understandable.  Pisces tend to be very sensitive to their environment and subtleties, its something I've struggled with especially earlier in my life, it wasn't until I talked with others that I realised that they often held similar perceptions too.

Bobbie Fischer does look a bit socially awkward though, so he would probably fit the diagnosis of autism or at least Aspergers in this day and age, but maybe its just that his social life was neglected due to spending so much time mastering chess. With the Aries MC there may been quite a toll for being so single minded about reaching and staying at the top of his chosen field or game.

He's quite a study~
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 12:03:38 AM by Robynne Black »

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2016, 04:08:29 AM »
"Providing a detailed differential diagnosis of Bobby Fischer would require a much longer treatment of the topic than is possible here. I do provide such an expanded consideration in a book-length project in progress. For present purposes, suffice it to say that I believe Bobby did not meet all the necessary criteria to reach diagnoses of schizophrenia or Asperger’s Disorder. The evidence is stronger for paranoid personality disorder, which the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) says “may be first apparent in childhood and adolescence with solitariness, poor peer relationships, social anxiety, underachievement in school, hypersensitivity, peculiar thoughts and language, and idiosyncratic fantasies. These children may appear to be ‘odd’ or ‘eccentric’ and attract teasing.”

https://psmag.com/a-psychological-autopsy-of-bobby-fischer-f757852a2910#.b7s88z5ir
"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

Offline In Stitches

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2016, 03:52:17 PM »
Thanks for Bobby Fischers Mothers chart, James Williams. She became a doctor and it's unbelievable to me how she managed to rise from that from coming into the country with two kids and roaming all over as a single mother back in the 1940s. i heard a lecture given by an FBI agent about sleeper Spies who are sent to the U.S. To live as normal people until needed so maybe that's behind what's going on here. I suspect that's what many countries do. She had a high degree of education in Russia before coming here. In that case, Bobby Fischer would have known what was going on and would know that he could never trust anyone in his path. Without a Father figure he would never have had an example of how to compete with others and lose gracefully.

Lop aka, your example is very interesting. A person with Moon conjunct Saturn could always tend to suffer depression, especially when connected with Mercury (cognition). Mars opposite that Neptune/Pluto could easily be suicidal, definitely some sort of killer instinct, good for military. I think the entire Neptune-Pluto in Gemini generation had to deal with a lot of paranoia. They started 2 world wars.

Anybody who's connected with government and isn't paranoid is nuts, in my opinion.

Most of my interview clothes have disappeared and someone put some bad stuff in my gas tank and the car can barely run so I'm having a bad day. :(

Offline pdw

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 05:37:40 AM »
I saw Pawn Sacrifice (2015), a feature film about Bobby Fischer’s life up to his 1972 match with Spassky. I thought it was interesting and just read a comparison between the story and details presented in the movie and Fischer's real life. Fascinating – I’d recommend it (link below) even if you haven’t seen the movie.

http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/pawn-sacrifice/

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Pisces tend to be very sensitive to their environment and subtleties...

Robynne, that’s an excellent point. Indeed, maybe his Pisces Sun trined by Jupiter - in Cancer and his 12th House, and his only solar aspect - suggests very special sensitivity influencing both his self-expression (Leo Ascendant) and uncompromising public reputation (Jupiter squares his natal Aries Venus-MC). With this angular emphasis and potential thrust of desire or obsession (with Pluto conjunct his ASC), I can see how two ‘greats’ might dominate his actions and life: great sensitivity-receptivity to his environment (heightened by his 3rd House Neptune at AP); and great intellectual pursuit and understanding (9th House Sun-12th House Jupiter).

Quote
Bobby Fisher's 3rd house was ruled by Mercury, which was peregrine

Barbara, Uranus squares Fischer’s Mercury – so Mercury is not peregrine (unaspected). In fact it is the only square outlet for Fischer’s Air Grand Trine, perhaps a significant factor in his ability to use his mental power so successfully.

I went back and read the S&C section about Grand Trines without the Sun or Moon, like Fischer’s Air Grand Trine. Noel suggests this kind of chart and personality may have two themes, with a clearly discernible schism between the two. Which seems spot on in Fischer’s case.     


Offline Barbara Ybarra

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 07:15:52 AM »
PDW:  Yes, your are right, Mercury square Uranus, very significantly emphasizing that same energy.  I think I knew that originally but grabbed "peregrine" in my post here...because it feels so peregrine, but yes, that is incorrect, unless someone is a stickler about being over the sign-line.

I like that you said, pdw, that the square is the outlet for the grand trine!  Very nice.  For years and years all we heard was to look for the trine outlet for the square!  I think perhaps Fischer rather let his trine do its thing, never really pushed himself to work through the frightening thoughts that he was being attacked.

-Barbara

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2016, 04:51:52 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvKEUOjxf8k

Bobby Fischer Against the World...
"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).

robynne

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2016, 08:33:25 PM »
Thanks heaps pdw. I watched a few more videos on Bobbie Fischer last night, just to get more of a sense of what he was about. Although everyone contributed and Jim started the thread, (or brought it forward), your analysis suddenly brings his whole chart to life.  :) and now I can finally see how Noel's methods give a different view of the chart. Either way, he's a fascinating study, and I'd watch the movie. His laterlife looks a bit sad though.  :(

Offline Maz

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2016, 10:35:05 PM »
I read the first post of this thread and thought that it was very interesting, in particular, Noel's quote. I am going through a period in my life that I wanted to discuss and noticed this thread.

However, I just checked the definition of paranoia and I see this from the Chambers Dictionary...

paranoia noun (paranoias) 1 psychol a rare mental disorder, characterized by delusions of persecution by others, especially if this is attributed to one's own importance or unique gifts. 2 a strong, usually irrational, feeling that one is being persecuted by others, resulting in a tendency to be suspicious and distrustful, and to become increasingly isolated.
ETYMOLOGY: 19c: Greek, from para- beyond + nous mind.

The thing, I don't feel myself being persecuted but I can relate to the very first post exactly.

Are we using the right terminology here or maybe I'm being "paranoid"  ;) ?

I want to contribute to this thread as it's already started but maybe it's the wrong one for my subject.

Thanks, Maz

Offline James Williams

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Re: Paranoia
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2016, 01:31:30 AM »
Feel free to post here if you like Maz.  This thread has already been detoured!  ;D
"Time is a trick, a vast illusion...Yet there is a plan behind appearances that does not change. The script is written. For we but see the journey from the point at which it ended, looking back on it, imagining we make it once again; reviewing mentally what has gone by"  (Jesus).