Chiron

[Ken Haining]

Over in the general discussion area I have been looking at Chiron a bit.  I have never found it to work definitively in a chart, Natally or by Transit, as I first took a look at it back in the mid 90s.  However, when Alice McDermott mentioned that she uses it, that motivated me to look at it again, as obviously Alice is a very competent astrologer. 

The last incident on my own chart that I was looking at, in terms of Chrion being the healer/wounder, was a near death accident that I had.  I wrote this in the general discussion area:

On November 19, 1999 I had a near death accident.  The paramedics had to revive me.  I fainted from taking too much pain medication in the bathroom, and struck my head on the bathtub.  I had a serious brian bleed and three grand mall seizures.  I woke up the next day in ICU.

On that day Chiron was on my Koch 12th house cusp, within less than a degree.  Does that add up with what some of you would say about Chiron?  I recovered much faster than expected and did not need the brain surgery that they had been planning.  It was the start of the final series of events that would lead to my divorce.
Birth info: 10/10/52, 12:02 PM, Far Rockaway, Queens, New York.

************************************************** 

I had originally gotten into this when Alice mentioned that during a very horrific time in my life, Chiron was on my 9th house cusp in the Koch system.  This was a discussion about house systems, and I had emailed Alice privately about some of the events of April 1994.  I was thinking of another incident that I could look at that might involve Chiron, so I went to this accident that I had back in 1999.  I was definitely wounded just as Chiron was sitting on my 12th house cusp.

I am trying to determine if Chirion is significant.  No matter how much I respect any given astrologer, I like to test these things for myself.  Maybe there wasn't enough known about Chiron the last time I looked at it.  So, I am looking again.

Any comments would be appreciated.
Ken

[Alice Portman]

Wescott disagrees with the wounded healer interpretations.

She says that Chiron represents an original view or a vastly different perspective.  it shows by house and sign where your ARE NOT bound by societal, cultural,, parental, or any boundaries.  Chiron is a blend of Saturn and Uranus. 

As a transit it operates in Saturn/Uranus ways using established key words such as Maverick, turning point, rule breaking, and dealing with authorities.  You can see some of Zane Stein's wounded healer here, Wescott cautions using that phrase.  She says that it easily THEN becomes a rationalization and mask for behaviors that amount to little more than "do as I say, not as I do". 

This still fits transiting Chiron conjunct your Koch 9th house Ken.  It broke you free from specific societal and cultural boundaries.  Perhaps its function was to point out the truth to you.  This did deeply wound you, but it is mostly better to know the truth than live in an illusion.

I must admit I prefer Wescott's interpretation.  I also like what Magi Astrology has offered on Chiron.  It fascinates me that such a small body that is not a planet nor an asteroid, and seems to be part comet,  can have such a strong influence.  Yet when you map it in a natal chart and with transits it seems to work very well indeed.

Alice McDermott

[Lura]

Alice & Ken,

A few thoughts triggered by your handling of Chiron.

2000 was the year for me, that the force of this energy appeared.  Clairvoyance.

Background is that I had had a few near death situations, but this was different.  In the few instances I have consulted the Tarot, which has proven quite accurate, it provided the 10 Swords before a trip overseas.  If it had not prepared me for what I returned to, in terms of family crises, I think I would have gone over the edge.

Well, when I got back, I think I may have witnessed a little of Chiron's assistance.  The lucidity at the 'last bucket falling,' presented an inner guide and I was shown how my actions were of value and were connected to those that have passed over.  Such joy!  the feeling of struggle, how proud I was of what I saw...very vivid reflection.

Chiron was in mid-Saggitarius, in fact this axis seems to reflect most of my experiences otherworldly, uplifting and a shot in the arm (so to speak).  It is often the degree I refer to as "Fall from Grace" degree.  Square my 'Destin.'  I think Chiron just may be a stronger framework, or bedrock than some of us believe.  'Course I have the 'Cassandra' curse, and no matter how hard I try, what I know remains deeply attached and personal, very hard to reveal.

The Quincunx in Taurus is a factor as well.

[Ken Haining]

Hi Gwendolyn.

The accident took place in Albuquerque, New Mexico.  I couldn't tell you the time, but it was late afternoon.

Ken

[Ken Haining]

Hi Alice.

It was because of your mentioning Chiron that I have starting looking at it again.  Yes, quite a delusion was broken in April of 1994 for me, and continued to break for over a year.  Long story there, but what I sent you in the email gives you an idea.

Chiron is more or less unaspected on my Natal chart.  Any thoughts on that?

Also, I am watching as transiting Chiron conjuncts transiting Neptune and Jupiter.  This is forming a tight sextile to my son's Natal Neptune.  He has been having a very rough time of it lately, and I was wondering if Chiron combining with Neptune and Jupiter in such a favorable aspect might give him a break or advantage of some kind. 
(My son's birth info: 9/15/83, 7:50 AM, Albuquerque, New Mexico.)

So now I am trying to sort out the healer/wounder Chiron with the Saturn/Uranus Chiron.  I am going to have to observe quite a lot in the near future. 

Thanks, Alice
Ken

[sunflower]

Gwendolyn,

I have not read any of Martha Lang Wescotts work myself and I cannot agree with her take on Chiron. I dont know if Martha is looking at Chiron as one of the group of Centaurs which would explain her views.

Chiron did not join in with the baudy behavior of the Centaurs and rescued the bride at the wedding feast they crashed from being violated by the Centaurs. He help up his strict moral values and integrity when he encountered the scenario. Chiron's energy is gentle and has emphathy. Myth has  a great deal to offer on the energies of Planets and Asteroids.

sunflower   

[Ken Haining]

Hi Sunflower.

These are all interesting ideas.  Obviously, compared to the classic objects in astrology, we would tend to know a lot less about something like Chiron. 

Do you have any examples of specific transits where you have seen Chiron have the wounding/healing effect? 

I am looking over major events in my own life and the lives of some that I know real well, and have an accurate chart on.  I am trying to isolate the effects of Chiron, if any.  So, any input on this would be appreciated. 

Ken

[sunflower]

Ken,

With your Natal Chiron just below your Asc and making wide oppositions to your 7th House Moon-Uranus conj in Cancer it very obvious that you would have some wounds around personal relationships - with women and family members.The actual 'event' itself does not have to involve Chiron but you are obviously very sensitive.

I feel this whole scenario had its beginnings well before the accidental event and I feel you can track it back to childhood?

Chiron is not the one who 'wounds' - he is the healer. Why your family deserted you at this time isnt something I can work out atm. But can you unravel your own birth and how you got on with your siblings? What is your place in the family? First child? Middle child? I'm looking at the Libra Stellium which indicates Father - now Saturn in Libra is in exhaltation so was this relationship good? The Sun is in fall in Libra not so good for your own vitality and energy.

Heres the link - Saturn is in Libra and is exhalted here. The Sun is in  fall in Libra so your own energies and vitality may be affected by Saturn - father. Saturn disposits Chiron in 1st as he rules Capricorn. With the Neptune, Saturn and Sun conj in Libra in 9th Father possibly was a very confusing and maybe a very preachy Dad to you?

Saturn rules your second House of Self worth and value and this makes life very difficult for you. It's hard to feel good about yourself with Saturn so strong and always in control of your life. Saturn squares your 7th House Moon and Uranus, and your Sun and Moon are in square to each other so your head and your heart are at odds with each other. I'm thinking the rift was possibly related to belief systems and you were not in agreement with your Dad? If you wish I can delete this post.

sunflower   

[Lura]

Ken,

Your concern for your son is palpable.

Specifics you want:

1.  reoccurence of heart murmur

2.  very strong praying/writing of deep poetry

3.  discovered 'out of blue' Noel's Solar Arcs book and phrase "Get out of Dodge!"

4.  weird country music tunes "Cowboys don't Cry, they Move On"  "I Out grew the Wagon"  "Tables were turned," etc.

5.  strong values/ethic clash, gave my inheritance away (Striesand says in concert "Money is as good as manure, only good if you spread it around.")

6.  dreams of crossing over, jumping into water, with layers of thermal underwear which seemed out of place.

7.  Uranus the Volunteer arrived on scene, became the 'rage'

8.  joined Hospice

9.  saw my father for once as only human, with failings, as well as my own

10.  knew it was going to hurt, but could do nothing about it

(this is starting to seem like a 'Letterman' top 10, so I'll stop)

I wish you and your family well. 

[Stacy]

Do you have any examples of specific transits where you have seen Chiron have the wounding/healing effect? 

I am looking over major events in my own life and the lives of some that I know real well, and have an accurate chart on.  I am trying to isolate the effects of Chiron, if any.  So, any input on this would be appreciated. 

Ken
[/quote]


I am tempted to say it is largely Chiron, currently cj Jupiter-Neptune and my IC, that is bringing to the fore so much unprocessed pain regarding family and mother, but I suspect tr. Neptune is carrying the largest load here. Nevertheless, I am sensitive to Chiron and believe it has it's place in this major transit of wounding...and eventual healing.

Stacy

[Lura]

Before my last post begins to sound like an Eris sketch, I provide what little I can of Astrology.

Lilith conjunct Ascendant exact, opp. Mars   (deep wound to core of faith,character,identity)

Node, 'millionaires degree' - 29 Cancer (per Carol Rushman), opp. natal Jupiter-Saturn, certainly not to my choosing, but internally enriching

Neptune and Uranus opp. natal Moon and Uranus (mid-life timing, extenuating knife turning to come)

In all honesty, it felt like a very strong 'compass setting' (resisting my will to set it on my own)  Non-negotiable

Back to Eris, 'Kassandra' conjunct my Dad's Moon exact, square Vertex, square Chiron, release to Ceres-Vesta Pisces.  Tr. Ceres opp. my 'Noel.'  Re-birthing strongly felt.

Uranus conjunct Juno-Pholus opp. vertex, tr. Jupiter in square.  definitely a chance of transcendent line crossed.  Tentatively

Progress Moon, as timer conjunct natal Sun-Chiron, very lost, opp. Pluto-Node Virgo.  NO mother back-up, very little in fact at all.  I was on my own.

Knew I was in serious trouble, when the heart began to act up, I went and pressed myself on the ground, in the pines, and slept.  It's the only thing that worked.  [Don't laugh, Mother Earth is very alive and breathing.] even if we can't explain.

hope this helps.

[Lura]

Gwendolyn,

Your comment that Chiron wounds, recalls a past descrip I read many years ago, on the difference between Pluto and Saturn as they operate.

Pluto, makes one swift cut to the arm, done.  Saturn, pulls it out of the socket, twists it, and eventually succeeds.  something like that.

Ken, Pluto was conjunct Chiron in Saggitarius, opp. my natal Psyche.  How does one make a swift cut to the Psyche?

This is all so Gordion, umbilicus-like.  Phantom pains remain after amp-utation.  Doesn't one try to hang onto the only thread they have to hope?  fine that it may be?

[Lura]

Ken,

How the situation develops may not be within reach, but looking back and how it was handled could have been a whole lot better and healthier for all.

I remember that I was in Vienna around this time, and the Columbine shootings were being broadcast.  Very macabre.  On further look, there were many avenues, Quintiles not obscure.  The tr. Sun conjunct my IC and the 'gorge' Sabians opp. the 'rush.'  The Sun was conjunct Jupiter at the Avatar degree (15 degrees fixed), conjunct Saturn.  Taurean.

Tr. Mars with 'Algol' and its a wonder no one literally 'lost their head!'

Tr. Psyche conjunct Mercury-Venus (natal Venus) opp. the 'Superman' degree (prophetic symbolism from childhood) to balance the Vesta flame, mission oriented purpose of this event, and valued outcome.

It is only after many, many years, that one can finally see the changes that resulted from one moment of great crisis.

Pallas, 7 Leo opp. tr. Neptune is my signature, creativity fueled by square to Pholus (conjunct 'Serendipity') Rx, with the Jupiter-Saturn-Sun.

Do I regret some things that happened?  of course.  but with a Comet like Chiron, it's never cut and dry.  One must never tire or give up when there is so much to be gained and experienced.

and Capricorns can be the most hard on themselves.

[Ken Haining]

Hi Sunflower

You said:

"Saturn rules your second House of Self worth and value and this makes life very difficult for you. It's hard to feel good about yourself with Saturn so strong and always in control of your life. Saturn squares your 7th House Moon and Uranus, and your Sun and Moon are in square to each other so your head and your heart are at odds with each other. I'm thinking the rift was possibly related to belief systems and you were not in agreement with your Dad?"


My biological father left my Mom, my older brother, and myself when I was but three years old.  My mother remarried when I was four years old.  My step father was a rather violent drunk, and hurt me quite a bit up until he had a stroke when I was six years old.  After that he did not drink, and although still the loud ex military man, the violence ceased.  We got to be pretty good friends in my adult years.  He passed away two and a half years ago.  I never saw my first father again, but I looked up his military records and he died way back in 1974.  He was married three more times after my Mom divorced him, so I probably have some half siblings out there whom I have never met. 

What happened to me as a adult has to do with my involvement with a religious group that tends to have a very destructive effect on their members, most of whom leave after some years in it.  Alice pointed out that Chiron was on my 9th house cusp at the time I had the blow up with that religious group, and that is what caused me to want to look at Chiron again.  I am aware of the other factors, and my Sun-Saturn-Neptune conjunction, square my Moon-Uranus conjunction is something that I have to always deal with.  Yes, heart vs head.  That's a good way of putting it. 

I am just trying to isolate the nature of Chrion and its effects and determine if it is something I can use in my own astrological studies.  Different people are saying different things about Chiron, and so I am testing them out.  Thanks for your comment that you see Chiron as a healer, but not a wounder.  That's another interesting opinion.

Ken

[pnewman]

Probably to Ken's chagrin, this is all chronologed on the internet.  Lots of the people in the group are still really mad at him.  The astrology though is pretty interesting. 

Was the accident related to the tearing away from the group, Ken?