Author Topic: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate  (Read 7330 times)

Offline Kathy Rose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
    • Rose Astrology
Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« on: September 19, 2016, 10:06:27 AM »
For some time now we've had the Saturn/Pluto midpoint hovering close to the AP. I wrote about this in an article for the Mountain Astrologer when the shooting took place in Orlando a few months back. The AP adds public projection to the mix - and the Saturn/Pluto energy is heavy and intense!

Now this recent bomb situation in NYC (9/17/16) happens with Sun square Mars just a few degrees from Saturn/Pluto (27 Sagittarius 52). We also see that Neptune square Saturn was exact - with nodal axis involved. This is covert action connected to violence.

The reason I felt compelled to post today is because the current midpoint picture today is Sun = Saturn/Pluto - with Mars being just two degrees away. We are in a volatile time right now - so it's no wonder we are in another terrorist news cycle.

Between now and September 26 (the first Pres debate) we see that tr  Mars will be sitting on  Saturn/Pluto at the AP. This is while we see continued Neptune - Saturn - node contact. We have to wonder about more intensity or violence in the news cycle during the period - and how it will impact the debate.

The chart for 9 pm Sept 26 in Hempstead, NY has Neptune = Saturn = Nodes = Sun/Moon WITH the AP Mars = Saturn/Pluto. In addition there is Pluto = Sun/Uranus.  This has a powerful energy!

Perhaps this just spells an intense debate dealing with difficult issues.... the Moon will be in Leo that day - and Sun conjunct Jupiter - so we know there will be exaggeration and drama (as is always the case with political debates). Perhaps more about Hillary's health will surface. We don't know - but this is not a light and breezy time frame!

My concern is more connected with more violence erupting between now and the end of the month - due to the continuing AP contact with the heavy weight planets.

Kathy

 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:13:27 AM by Kathy Rose »
Kathy Rose Astrology

http://roseastrology.com/

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 05:09:36 AM »
Thanks for mentioning the first debate Kathy...

That Mars=Saturn/Pluto midpoint is ominous indeed...

Psychologists Keith Stanovich and Rishard West describe two modes of thinking... from Thinking Fast and Slow

System 1: operates automatically and quickly, with little or no effort and no sense of voluntary control.

System 2: allocates attention to the effortful mental activities that demand it, including complex computations. The operations of System 2 are often associated with the subjective experience of agency, choice, and concentration.

We see each mode expressed in the candidates, clearly one mode dominating in each of them...

Wow! The 9:00 PM chart speaks clearly about the struggle... possibly threats nearby in space and time... but I think the BIG signature for the first debate is Jupiter-Sun trine the MC... The debate could break records in viewership... but ultimately failing to deliver falling short of meeting high expectations. Jupiter-Sun squaring that ominous Mars, @ the AP, the candidates may appear to be painfully conciliatory at first (Venus asc r. in contact with the MC), agonizing to not make any missteps. This mode favors Clinton. It may come down to whoever errs least wins AND we see that the ascendant moves into Gemini as the night progresses so things may can get pretty intense by the end. Trump un-muzzled could help or destroy his efforts... If he doesn't take the muzzle off its a sure win for Clinton. So, I will be looking for which 'mode of thinking' elevates... Mercury in Virgo ties in loosely with the Nodes and Saturn... the scales may be tipped...

Bringing us to this other signature: Saturn exactly square the Nodes. Trump may have a point in regards to "playing the refs" ahead of the game since the publishing/media establishment appears strong and unified as a group to reestablish some sense of order and decorum. Good luck with that eh?  ;) They may not keep order but Trump may find it difficult to get on his game under the pressures and control imposed by the rules enforced.

Hillary needs a home run at least, more assuredly a Grand Slam performance in order to "Win" and Trump only needs a base hit. HRC has built a reputation of "not closing" and so a stellar performance is unlikely... If Trump doesn't trip over his New York dentures he'll walk away victorious... again an outlier outcome... any gaff will propel the first debate to a "tie" setting up the second debate exactly how the media giants want it... but the public may come away disappointed, frustrated by lack of "debate" that is substantive and arguing about it... Really no different than the electorate or the race up to this point.

Amazingly, despite the money and ground game the democratic lead has dwindled to late July levels... just prior to the Democrats convention... I suspect a big spend ahead for the Blue Team.. that and a poised but unremarkable performance by HRC suggests the gap reopens... This is the Democrats game to lose even though the Red Team is over due for a win and the Whitehouse... So far Trump has had the "hot hand" in this contest and everything he's thrown up seems to swish, with the exception of a couple of brief interludes but somehow he doesn't implode... Does the "hot hand" fallacy reveal itself for what it is? A fallacy... Can Trump translate his primary strategy to the general and score points...? I think the public tunes in for the answer... and ultimately we are entertained but not anymore informed than before the debate...

HVA

   

Offline Kathy Rose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
    • Rose Astrology
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 08:25:48 AM »
Great analysis HVA!
I spent some time yesterday looking at the midpoints that will be triggered in the candidates charts - by the planets in the debate chart.

A few things that stand out -
the transiting Moon at the start of the debate will hit the following midpoints in Trump's chart:
Moon = Jupiter/Node , Pluto/Asc , Sun/Jupiter ..... this is nice activation for a major performance.

Also for Trump : tr Mercury = Mars/Neptune , Jupiter/Pluto ..... suggesting powerful and charming communication
** even though this midpoint picture with Mercury involved is showing up for Trump - the wildcard energy he displays can take this in all sorts of directions

For Trump there is also tr Venus = Mercury/Asc ...... also nice for adding some persuasion and charm in communication

Interestingly for Trump tr Mars = Mercury/Node, Moon/Mercury, Sun/Mercury.... it wouldn't be a debate without Mars involved! This also clearly shows that he will be verbally sparring with a woman (Mercury/Node and Moon/Mercury).

And of course we have to note that tr Uranus is exactly on Trump's Saturn now - rocking the boat!!

One last thing for Trumptr Uranus = Mars/Node, and Moon/Mars ..... once again we see the theme with sparring with a woman - with Mars/Node and Moon/Mars!

The transiting Moon in Leo will be hitting Clinton's Saturn (just past her Pluto-Mars) in the 9th house. Surely she will be highlighting her international experience and expertise.

Clinton will have tr Venus just past her Sun .... it's always more powerful when the inner planets are exact, but still this can add some grace and charm in her delivery.

Clinton also has tr Sun and Jupiter = Mars/Asc, Mercury/Pluto, Sun/MC, Venus/Saturn..... receiving help from the Sun-Jupiter conjunction is a very nice thing! Trump's chart is not activated by this aspect.

Midpoints involving the nodal axis are common during this type of event - because it is major public exposure - connecting with the masses. Note the points with the nodes for Trump - and there even more for Clinton : tr Uranus = Moon/Node, tr Neptune = Uranus/Node, tr Pluto = Node/MC

Clinton will have had tr Mars opposite Uranus (r 3)  just a few days before the debate - aggressive communication where she needs to think on her feet. She will also have SA MC = Pluto exact just a few days after! We would expect  this type of solar arc during a peak career period.

The Moon in Leo for the debate ensures drama and pride on display.

The AP Mars triggering the Saturn/Pluto energy will be strong for the rest of September. This is troublesome for the entire world - and I sincerely hope it isn't signalling another violent attack somewhere. This midpoint being activated for the debate speaks volumes about intensity!!! This is echoed by Neptune = Nodes = Saturn - Sun/Moon. Heavy, serious, somber energy.

I don't know who is more favored in the debate - as we consider these aspects. I've given up trying to predict the unpredictable wild behavior from Trump! At the very least this promises to be very powerful - just don't know if it'll be positive or negative in general.

Kathy






« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:27:52 AM by Kathy Rose »
Kathy Rose Astrology

http://roseastrology.com/

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 05:27:32 AM »
Hi Kathy and Tim, interesting takes on the debate measures, thanks.   

Reflecting the 8:02 AM chart, her illness and the 24 Pisces lunar eclipse last week, I’m watching Hillary Clinton and her eclipsed 22 Pisces Moon for any more response-changing or core-draining conditions affecting her physically or emotionally

Squared by Uranus in her natal chart, her shock-absorbing Moon looks like an important safety valve needed to filter - process, absorb, ignore - everyday excitement and tension. Now eclipsed and open to heightened sensitivity-vulnerability-(self-)awareness, how will a   highlighted lunar response to the environment or fluctuating feelings affect her campaign going forward?
 
With T Mars triggering her natal Moon-Uranus square, and approaching the Saturn-Pluto midpoint, perhaps she’s unusually aware of the need to erase doubt and prove her overall strength to the public. Could reflect a strong drive to ‘kill it’ at the debate, which could make for intense, exhausting debate prep. 

« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:46:00 AM by pdw »

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 06:45:27 AM »
Kathy,

Great work... thanks... interesting that studies show how debates rarely move the needle on voter perception and/or behavior. The powerful signatures you describe seem to affirm that each candidate may speak well and make their case but perhaps preaching to their own choirs.

pdw, (autocorrect wants to type "ode"  when I tap your initials... LOL) So, please excuse me if I sing your praises too loudly... Really appreciate your take on HRC's medical situation. No doubt there is something there and the Moon is key... the "shock-absorbing safety valve"? Really? Where the heck did you pull that from, and why didn't I think of it?  :o

Something that came to mind concerning the Mars=Saturn/Pluto midpoint picture squared by Sun-Jupiter is that we often read mundane potential from the eye of the beholder... us versus them perhaps... but within the SPECTRUM of the mundane we all experience the same energies... I am thinking (too slowly) that the Mars=Saturn/Pluto picture might represent frustrations on the part of attackers to carry out their plans as much as it represents the threat of those attacked. That maybe we are nearing an end to these violent rampages and gradually we begin to see them abate... Any way for what it's worth I'm heading over to grab a bag of Skittles before they sell out... (Phillip Bump's column in thebWashington Post, The Fix, is a worthwhile read... on the Skittles topic) And yet the correspondence of M=S/P continues with police shootings, terrorism, Syria, etc. etc. etc.


Here are the topics to be discussed at the first debate announced by the moderator  Lester Holt

1.  America's Direction

2. Achieving Prosperity

3. Achieving Security


I like the prompts... They are broad enough for candidates to spin yet also asking candidates to be clear and specific about three concerns most Americans have.

Many thanks....

HVA


Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 06:50:48 AM »
Tim, Thinking Fast and Slow reminded me of Mercury and this article -

http://khaldea.com/planets/merc_type.shtml

Might be an astrological Think Fast-Slow comparison or correlation in there... Thanks for adding to our thinking here. ;)   

Offline pdw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2807
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 07:13:09 AM »
Tim, just saw your most recent reply and appreciate the shout-out… I don’t know, I just kept hammering away at her Moon-Uranus square and finally came up with that phrase (after deleting a lot of clunky wording ;)). Glad you like it! 

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 04:25:37 AM »
pdw thanks for that link...

much appreciated and will circle back on this topic under another thread...

Dean... love that commentary... thanks...

What do you make of the Saturn (r3) squaring the Nodes-Neptune on Hillary's 4th-10th axis? The message feels very strong here... She's prepared! Massive group effort/think to ambush Trump somehow... What O'Malley said would be like preparing to fight "a monkey with a machine gun." You never know really which way he's going to point and shoot... (I thought that was hilarious)...

And on a side note (sorry I can't find the reference) but was listening to a Five-Thirty-Eight podcast and one of the speakers suggests that the numbers show whoever "Wins" the first debate loses the election... This makes it very difficult in deciding who to root for LOL...

Enjoy the show y'all...

All the best,

HVA

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 10:32:33 AM »
UPDATE

I am pretty sure that one of the guests on Five-Thirty-Eight podcast mentioned that with few exceptions the winner of the first debate loses the election... Two exceptions were Reagan an Bush '80 & '00 (Saturn conjunct Jupiter).

But Harry Enten wrote today "If you look at the polls taken after the first debate and the final pre-election polls, the average difference is just 2.2%... The leader in the polls after the first debate was always the leader in the final polls."

So... with the race tightened as much as it has THIS IS BIG... could be the US's Brexit Moment... Or not if the BIG is a BIG FAIL on the pet of the challenger.


HVA

Offline Hudson Valley Astrologer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 985
  • "First Seek to Understand" Sun-Moon (Pisces-Aries)
    • The Hudson Valley Astrologer
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 03:55:25 PM »
Forum,

Yesterday rising star Jose Fernandez was killed in a boating accident...

Kathy had written about "The AP adds public projection to the mix - and the Saturn/Pluto energy is heavy and intense!"

I have personally never really seen such an emotional display on the start of a baseball game... it was intense for sure... and personal... and sad... The Marlins have busted out early in the game to a 5 run lead on the back of Gordon's opening salvo over the right field fence...

One fan tweeted that perhaps the presidential candidates ought to tune in to have a look at what it means for people to come together... both teams were holding one another and hugging in a tearful embrace that was very touching... in an excruciating way...

I have to say that I am "impacted" significantly in terms of how I will view the debates... And we still have an hour to go... Or maybe I'll just watch the rest of the game...

HVA out...

Offline Steven7

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 06:03:03 PM »
 Mars at the Aries point   Zero Capricorn  Aspects Trumps Ascendant /Descendant and his Part of Fortune at 60 degrees.

Mars  at this Aries Point Zero Capricorn aspects Jupiter and the Sun in Hillary's chart.

robynne

  • Guest
Re: Saturn/Pluto midpoint activation and the debate
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 07:54:30 PM »
I caught the last half hour of the presidential debate on Stuff LiveStream, just wanted to get a wee bit informed, but I really like the character study the most. From an outsiders perspective Donald Trump seemed a bit more toned down than usual and a little bit more reasonable, but Hillary Clinton does come  across as being smug and has that supercilious smile, its concerning.

Was pleased that they both agreed that nuclear weapons were the single greatest threat, not global warming.

Living in NZ, don't really have a horse in the race, but it was interesting to view.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 08:13:30 PM by Robynne Black »