Author Topic: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia  (Read 3321 times)

Offline Pamela Young

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Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« on: October 21, 2016, 06:53:08 AM »
Yesterday I read an article about Saudi Arabia that rather worried me; it says that, because of the steep drop in oil prices, the country is in big trouble financially and is having to make major adjustments to the way of life its citizens have enjoyed for decades, e.g., imposing income tax and sales tax, just for a start.  It sounded ominous for the future so I had a look at Saudi Arabia's chart, as shown in Nicholas Campion's Book of World Horoscopes.  Unfortunately I only have the first edition, which was published in 1988; I'm wondering if there have been any changes to the chart as given in my copy. 

The situation is complicated, as Campion says, "The formation of Saudi Arabia began in 1902, but was not complete until the former rival kingdoms of Hijaz and Nejd lost their separate identity in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932."  The given chart is for January 15, 1902, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, at 3:45 a.m. LMT, and is for the capture of Riyadh from the Turks in 1902.  However, there are a number of other possible dates that could be used for a chart of modern Saudi Arabia, including the proclamation of Ibn Saud as King of Hijaz, on January 8, 1926, and the formal proclamation of Saudi Arabia on September 21, 1932.  Obviously a lot could change depending on which chart is accepted as being accurate for the present state. 

But I must say, the current transits to the chart Campion gives do seem to match the situation described in the article:  transiting Mars and Pluto are approaching conjunction with the country's 2nd house Saturn, 3 and 4 degrees away from exactitude respectively, and then they will eventually conjoin the Sun and then Jupiter (the chart's ruler), both of which are also in the 2nd house. 

Anyone have any thoughts about this situation?

             www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-saudi-arabias-social-contract-is-under-threat/article32447465/


I am going to try one more time to post a chart, which I haven't been able to do for quite a while.  Here goes:             
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 07:05:44 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 08:06:59 AM »
The chart actually printed; amazing.  Meanwhile, I found another article today that is worth taking into consideration:

   www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/saudi-public-see-princes-execution-as-sign-of-equality/article32451248/?reqid=4087ad69-7059-

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 05:06:05 AM »
Thanks very much, Dean, for your excellent observations. Yes, comparing this chart to that of the USA (Sibly - July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, PA, 5:10 pm) is certainly very informative.  The USA's Mercury closely opposes Saudi Arabia's Sun and Jupiter, the latter exactly - and Jupiter rules Saudi Arabia's chart.  Also, the USA's Pluto conjoins them, though not quite as closely.  And the USA's Sun opposes Saudi Arabia's Saturn, while its own Saturn (in Libra) squares it.  It's also interesting that the two charts have the same Ascendant, only a couple of degrees apart; that would mean that Saudi Arabia's chart was very affected by the 9/11 event.  Interesting, to say the least.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 05:23:01 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 06:41:13 AM »

Karma comes to the Kingdom.


Yup!  You said it, Dean.

Regards,
Pam

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 09:39:29 AM »
I've been looking at Saudi Arabia's chart again, and thinking about the transits that will be affecting it in the next few years.  I noticed, first of all, that the country will be having its Saturn Return, and right on its heels will have transiting Saturn conjoin its Sun and then its Jupiter.  Before it hits Jupiter, transiting Pluto will have conjoined the natal Saturn and then the Sun.  So Saudi Arabia will be having both transiting Saturn and Pluto conjunct its Sun (and Jupiter, one degree later) at the same time, right after having had them conjoin the natal Saturn.  Talk about a double whammy; I think this is a triple or quadruple whammy. 

It got me to thinking about what Liz Greene had said when she predicted the future dissolution of the Soviet Union, back in 1980, when no one would have imagined that would happen.  Her remarks are published in the book 'The Outer Planets & Their Cycles: The Astrology of the Collective' (CRCS, 1983).  What she had to say about what the future held in store for the Soviet Union sounds very similar to what is coming up for Saudi Arabia.  A short excerpt:

Each time Saturn has passed across the natal sun [of Russia] the Russian leader has died or been removed from office.  This is the case when Stalin took over from Lenin, when Kruschev took over from Stalin, and when Brezhnev took over from Kruschev. ... If Saturn is approaching the sun by transit in an individual's chart, the year preceding the exact transit is usually fraught with a lot of soul-searching and the death of old attitudes and values which were once dominant.  In an inner sense, the old king dies and there is a period of confusion and sometimes depression before new values emerge.  What has happened in Russia is that just preceding the transit, the old leader dies or is deposed, and there is a power struggle which goes on until someone emerges at the top.  The country of course cannot vote for its ruler as it might in a democratic system, so there's no chance for the soul-searching and reflection to take place. 

What hasn't happened to Russia is the approaching transit of Pluto through Scorpio. ...  If Saturn brings down the head of government, what will Pluto do?  Perhaps the entire structure will change.  Pluto always brings profound changes and and rids a person of things which he has outgrown.  It's a kind of fate.  If the person can't meet the challenge to change, then he breaks down.  ... If this were an individual, he could seek help of various kinds to retain some ego continuity while the changes were happening.  But a country can't get help of that kind.  And a sun-Saturn country wouldn't ask for it anyway.  So it may be that Pluto takes on the very literal meaning of death, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will no longer be a union.
  (pages 118-120)

« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 04:21:21 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2016, 09:48:42 AM »
Had to start a new post because of some technical difficulties.  Just wanted to say that in Saudi Arabia's case transiting Pluto won't be in Scorpio, as it was for the Soviet Union.  However, it will be in Capricorn along with transiting Saturn (Saudi Arabia is sure one Capricornian country, with Sun conjunct Saturn in Capricorn, the latter's own sign).  In a mundane sense, Capricorn means the principle of government, social hierarchy, the structure of society, a very structured society.  So I think it's very probable that big changes lie ahead for Saudi Arabia, and that it is quite likely to fall apart in a very similar way to what happened in the USSR.

Offline Barbara Ybarra

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2016, 07:28:56 PM »
Great stuff, Pamela.  To further support your findings that Saudi Arabia may be coming to a crisis, this year the SA Moon is at 19 Cancer, opposite to the natal Saturn....a battle of second house interests against 8th house interests ("what's mine and what's ours").  Also the progressed Moon will be conjunct the natal Pluto in 2 months time.  I hate to bring Trump into this, but I bet he is thinking about who profits from oil in the future...and things like that.


Offline Robineli

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2016, 09:28:58 PM »
Earlier this month, an estimated 20 billion barrels of oil and 16 trillion cubic feet of natural gas were uncovered in West Texas. Putting that into the market will drop prices dramatically.

After reading this article https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/28/opec-meeting-to-focus-on-donald-trump-amid-fears-of-falling-oil-prices, it seems the discovery is factoring into their decision. And may strongly affect Saudi Arabia's financial future.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 04:18:36 AM »
Great stuff, Pamela.  To further support your findings that Saudi Arabia may be coming to a crisis, this year the SA Moon is at 19 Cancer, opposite to the natal Saturn....a battle of second house interests against 8th house interests ("what's mine and what's ours").  Also the progressed Moon will be conjunct the natal Pluto in 2 months time.  I hate to bring Trump into this, but I bet he is thinking about who profits from oil in the future...and things like that.

Thanks, Barbara; sorry to be late responding - I've been experiencing major computer problems and am presently without my laptop, and having to post from my phone, which I find frustrating.  Interesting about the Moon positions; I'm sure you're right about Trump.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 04:21:46 AM »
Earlier this month, an estimated 20 billion barrels of oil and 16 trillion cubic feet of natural gas were uncovered in West Texas. Putting that into the market will drop prices dramatically.

After reading this article https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/28/opec-meeting-to-focus-on-donald-trump-amid-fears-of-falling-oil-prices, it seems the discovery is factoring into their decision. And may strongly affect Saudi Arabia's financial future.

Robineli, thanks very much for your comments; interesting article.  Sorry I can't say more right now; posting from my phone is not my forte.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 04:23:38 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline amymaddalozzo

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 07:06:03 PM »
My understanding is that Harold HAmm, head of COntiental resources, is advising Trump on energy policy, and middle east policy.  He and Trump are thinking that Saudi Arabia has been basically getting a "free pass" over some of the stuff they do because the United States needs oil--that is not true any more.  The relationship between the US and the SAudis will change dramatically.  AMY

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2017, 06:30:52 AM »
Thanks very much for this, Dean.  I've been meaning to post on this thread for a week or so, ever since 'the night of the long knives' happened in Saudi Arabia; just haven't gotten around to it.  It certainly does look like this Saudi prince, Mohammed bin Salman, is liable to shake things up to a degree he may come to regret.  Some of the things he wants to do sound admirable, e.g., drastically lessening the country's dependence on oil revenue, and modernizing the country; he's already allowing women to drive, which they've never been allowed to do before.  But the way he's consolidating his power is worrisome; it's downright medieval - reminds me of the War of the Roses in England.  And the ambitions he has for the country to become the big power in the Middle East, and the difficulties that will entail (or already has) with Iran, Yemen and Lebanon, are major cause for concern for the rest of us.

Here's a link bringing things up to date since last week:

https://theglobeandmail.com/news/world/move-fast-and-break-things-a-young-saudi-prince-is-upending-the-middle-east-is-he-playing-with-fire/article36913721/

P.S. - Wish I could post some charts with transits, but my computer will not do that any more, for some unknown reason.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 06:32:33 AM by Pamela Young »

Offline Barbara Ybarra

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 08:04:06 AM »
I agree, Pamela, that there are probably several horoscopes for Saudi Arabia.  Thanks for the link to that article on the recent evoltuions in Saudi.  It was a very comprehensive report on the fragile interrelations within the Middel East.  Funny that the last list did not include Russia siding with anybody.

I looked at Prince Mohammed’s horoscope, though there is not a time for him.  I’m wondering if he has a “girlfriend”.  It seems he is the sort of guy who might someday be heavily influenced by what his wife might want from him.  He’s a good looking man.  Maybe not so bloodthirsty.  Just so everyone knows, women in Saudi did drive cars and wear normal clothing for awhile in history, and then in 1979 religious extremism took over and everything got horrible (again). 

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 04:47:57 PM »
Hi Barbara,

Yes, there are several possibilities for a chart of Saudi Arabia; however, the chart Nicholas Campion used does seem to work quite well.   The 'night of the long knives' was Saturday, November 4 (2017); there was a Full Moon that day, bang on Saudi Arabia's nodes, if you use Campion's chart.  The Sun at 11 Scorpio was on the North Node in the 11th house, with the Moon in Taurus on the South Node in the 5th; both squared Saudi Arabia's natal Mars in Aquarius, in the 2nd house by Placidus, or the 3rd house if you use whole sign houses.

 I've been trying to find out the exact time the arrests started, but so far haven't been able to; the most I've found is that they started several hours after the official announcement was made that an anti-corruption commission had been formed, and that the arrests took place 'late at night.'  I'm not sure if that means very early on November 4, i.e., after midnight, or very late in the evening of the same date.  But I guess the Full Moon would have walloped the chart, any way you slice it.

Here are two more links to articles about the ongoing events in Saudi Arabia: 

         https://theglobeandmail.com/opinion/has-the-house-of-saud-sparked-a-revolution-it-cannot-control/article36925579/

         www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/pepe-escobar-inside-story-saudi-night-long-knives

It sounds like the country could split back into three parts, as it was originally, with three separate 'royal' families ruling them.  And it sounds like Prince Mohammed bin Salman is doing all this for reasons a lot less altruistic than he lets on; shades of Richard III getting rid of Hastings and the other lords.  Sheesh.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 05:08:04 PM by Pamela Young »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Tough Times in Saudi Arabia
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 09:48:40 AM »
I've just come across the listing on Saudi Arabia in AstroDatabank, and got a surprise: the data is a mess, that's all I can say.  Nicholas Campion is given as the primary source, but the chart it gives from him for the capture of Riyadh on January 15, 1902, has the time 6:52 a.m., instead of the 3:45 a.m. that was given originally; this changes the chart appreciably.  It doesn't say where this time came from, if Campion has come across updated information, or what.  It's obvious that the edition they're using of his Book of World Horoscopes is not the one I have, going by the page numbering they cite.  My copy of the book is the first edition, so it may well be that the info they're citing from Campion is more accurate, if he came upon new information since writing the first edition of the book.  But the source notes don't say that he's the source of this new time. 

They also give a chart for the unification of all the constituent parts of the country into modern Saudi Arabia, 22 September 1932 at 5:56 pm.  But the source notes don't say where this time comes from; the sources they do cite give different times. 

I've discovered, looking at other websites, that some version of the 1932 date is the most commonly used for Saudi Arabia's chart, though the exact date varies between September 21, 22 or 23, never mind the time.  But Campion is on the record as thinking that the 1902 chart is the best to use, unless he's changed his mind.  I just wish I knew where that new (to me) time of 6:52 a.m. came from.  Personally I still think the original chart for January 15, 1902 at 3:45 a.m. works best, looking at the transits to it.

                                               https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nation:_Saudi_Arabia