Author Topic: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?  (Read 2079 times)

Offline Pamela Young

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In the recent (February/March 2017) issue of the magazine The Mountain Astrologer, there was much discussion of the possible reasons for why so many astrologers got the winner of the American election wrong.  One letter to the editor from Henry Spinelli in Pensacola, Florida, posited that it was because most people were using the tropical zodiac, instead of a sidereal one.  To quote from his letter:

Kevin Burke kicked off his article with: "You can stop worrying.  We will not be inaugurating President Trump in 2017."  Oops.  There's nothing like laying your reputation on the line.  But I'm not writing this to bash Kevin.  We all make mistakes.  His was using the tropical zodiac.  ... He used the tropical zodiac to analyze Donald Trump's chart, who has Sun in Taurus, not flighty Gemini.  His Moon is in Scorpio, not happy-go-lucky Sagittarius.  Need proof?  Look at what happened to the other Republican candidates in the primaries as they broke themselves trying to attack him.  His motto was simple: If someone strikes at you, strike back even harder.  In case you don't recognize it, that is sidereal Scorpio talking, conjunct the South Node and opposite the Sun and Uranus in Taurus.  (It also doesn't hurt to have Mars in Leo on the Ascendant.)

I have to admit, this does make sense.  Periodically throughout the years, I have found myself wondering if I'm making a mistake using the tropical zodiac, but I've always gone back to it.  Now I'm wondering again.  Sun in Taurus and Moon in Scorpio does make more sense for Trump.  I don't know ... anybody have any rejoinders to Henry Spinelli to argue that the tropical zodiac is in fact the right one to use, with reference to Trump's chart specifically?


Offline Robineli

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2017, 09:53:03 AM »
Noel often talked about "big bells."  The two SAs of Jupiter=Pluto and Pluto=Jupiter were pretty strong. Trump was bound to have something massive happen in his life.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 11:27:19 AM »
Thanks, Robineli.  I also just came across an analysis of Trump`s chart done by someone named Ellen on the Skyscript forum; she predicted back in January of 2016 that Trump would win, and she was using his tropical chart.  She thinks the reason she was able to do it was because she was neutral towards who would win, was not personally for Trump or Clinton.  She thinks people`s personal political views and hopes skewed their vision.  I know that was certainly true of myself, and I`ve seen quite a number of other people say the same thing.  It just resonated with me that Trump seems more like a Taurus Sun and Scorpio Moon, than Gemini Sun and Sagittarius Moon.

Offline Kannon McAfee

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 12:54:46 PM »
I use the tropical zodiac and I expected Trump to win going back to well over a year before the election. However, I did not make such a prediction formally, because I knew I despised the idea and was still looking for some way it might not come about. Counter-productive and definitely not objective. This was a difficult election and it was very hard to stay objective and see clearly.

Offline rollanrm

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 07:35:52 PM »
Frankly I could never see Trump as a Taurus. I feel he lacks that kind of solid, mostly calm deliberation - though he does have some determination but it's almost spectacular and belongs with his fixed sign Mars in Leo.  Trump strikes and struck me as Gemini from the first from the way he talks so easily, indeed talking himself into and out of things rather casually not worrying about possible contradiction. And he does use his hands considerably and rather strikingly. Trump to me is almost two persons, the worldly businessman and the would-be pious or at least religion friendly guy. I think we can more or less describe him even if we can't quite predict for him.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 06:25:41 AM »
I use the tropical zodiac and I expected Trump to win going back to well over a year before the election. However, I did not make such a prediction formally, because I knew I despised the idea and was still looking for some way it might not come about. Counter-productive and definitely not objective. This was a difficult election and it was very hard to stay objective and see clearly.

You're so right, Kannon, unfortunately.  I guess we can all use this as a learning experience, if nothing else - a bruising one.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 06:32:32 AM »
Frankly I could never see Trump as a Taurus. I feel he lacks that kind of solid, mostly calm deliberation - though he does have some determination but it's almost spectacular and belongs with his fixed sign Mars in Leo.  Trump strikes and struck me as Gemini from the first from the way he talks so easily, indeed talking himself into and out of things rather casually not worrying about possible contradiction. And he does use his hands considerably and rather strikingly. Trump to me is almost two persons, the worldly businessman and the would-be pious or at least religion friendly guy. I think we can more or less describe him even if we can't quite predict for him.

Well, Rollan, you're entitled to your opinion, of course.  I use the tropical zodiac, as I've said, and I have been working with Trump's tropical chart, but I personally do feel, just on an intuitive level, that he seems more like a Taurus Sun and Scorpio Moon than the Gemini Sun and Sagittarius Moon he is given by the tropical zodiac.  Especially the Scorpio Moon; that does really seem like him.  It was the letter writer, Henry Spinelli, who brought this up, and it did resonate with me. 

I'll almost certainly continue doing what I've been doing for years; check out all charts in both the tropical and sidereal zodiacs, but go on to work with the tropical one.  That's what I've been trained to use, and at this point old habits die hard.  Besides, the fact that there are some people, e.g., Ellen on the Skyscript forum and Ed Falis on the Astrodienst forum, who predicted Trump's win while using his tropical chart, goes to show that it could be done; surely if the use of the tropical zodiac was the problem, no one using Trump's tropical chart could have predicted his win.


Offline amymaddalozzo

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 06:51:20 AM »
I agree with the comments made about Trump's solar arcs--Jupiter-pluto solar arcs are pretty strong   Also, if you add in the fact that transiting Jupiter in libra was starting to conjunct natal Jupiter, sextile natal moon, and trine those Gemini planets at election time thru early 2017, that just reinforces the solar arcs.

People also forget that we knew for certain what Trump's birth time is due to a birth certificate  in hand.  We still do not know Hillary Clinton's birth time, what has been posted on  the internet is all speculation due to the lack of a birth record in hand.   (BY the way, the good transits Trump has will go away by September,)  AMY

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2017, 07:03:20 AM »
Well, presumably everyone could see those solar arcs prior to the election, but they didn't cause most people to predict a win for Trump; prediction via hindsight is always easy.  And do those solar arcs make any difference to whether or not using a sidereal chart for Trump would have helped people see his win more easily? 

Regardless, I am certainly looking forward to  the good transits he's now enjoying going bye-bye.

Offline Barbara Ybarra

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 08:27:42 AM »
I didn't see the article in MA, but I do believe that the lack of people using astrology to predict Trump as the election winner correlates (is caused by!) the dearth of politically conservative astrologers.  Astrologers just didn't want Trump to win.  By and large, astrologers are a group of people who, in the main, are politically liberal....and extremely so. I am in contact with a couple of groups of astrologers, and almost to a person they are Trump haters (and I agree he is rather lame).  It was difficult for them to even look at Trump's chart, let alone consider how he might win.   Like Kannon, I saw the potential in his (tropical) chart early on, but it was a very unpopular notion to bring it up (I won't even call it an opinion).  It fell on deaf ears, and the talk went right back to Bernie Sanders...and after that it was "Well, everyone knows that Hillary will win"...even though we had no birth time for her.  People see what they want to see, even astrologers. 

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 10:37:18 AM »
"Astrologers just didn't WANT Trump to win. ... People see what they want to see, even astrologers."

So true, Barbara; I couldn't agree more.  I was certainly as guilty of this as anyone.  But it's a sad commentary on us; it really is.  We should be better than this.  How do we expect to be taken seriously by the world at large, much less scientists, if we let our own personal wishes influence what we see?  It was really disgraceful, actually, and as I said, I'm as guilty as anyone.

Offline unique_astrology

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 11:24:20 AM »
I had the chart I use for all of my work done on the morning of Feb 9, 2016 but because I did not want him to win I did not post it or refer to it before the election.

Attached is the screen grab of that chart with the Irfanview image status bar showing the image creation date.

Offline Kannon McAfee

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2017, 11:52:52 AM »
Barbara, you pretty much nailed it. What was the first red flag for me was about Hillary's chart before Trump even declared (I think). These two factors were brought to my attention by others ...

You don't even need a birth time to see (a) Moon in Pisces - no U.S. President has had that placement and for good reason; (b) Saturn closely square her Nodes (and Mercury)- by itself not prohibitive, since Woodrow Wilson also had the aspect, but when added to the Moon in Pisces signaled problems.

I don't think Democrat & left-leaning astrologers (I'm one, a Green Party member) wanted to look at Hilary's chart objectively against a backdrop of research and learn something. The largest portion of U.S. Presidents have had Moons in earth signs, giving them practical ability and a tendency for factual, material clarity Hillary lacked. Not a single U.S. President has ever had Moon in Pisces. Someday that will probably change, but only when the office itself changes significantly. Even then the particular president will have Moon aspects that help overcome the innate tendencies of Pisces.

In addition, a survey of U.S. Presidential charts will show you Mercury aspects are important and many of them have multiple aspects with Mars, Pluto, Jupiter, etc, enabling effective communication. Hillary's Mercury 21 Scorpio-Rx squares her Saturn exactly.  The wider conjunction with Venus simply doesn't rescue it, and the wider square separating from Pluto only serves to intensify it.

So there were fundamental astrological problems with a Hillary candidacy from the start. Those made it easier to expect Trump in the White House. So I was not surprised, just in a degree of de-ja-why? for a while like everyone else.

The answer to why us U.S. karma, which means hard lessons learned the hard way in full dramatized view of the whole world so that it is witness and we cannot go head-into-sand later about it. There is a great portion of the nation (south, midwest) that is still stuck in old segregation civil war thinking. Only this time the conservatives-rise-again types are grabbing hold of the levers of executive federal power they've condemned as over-expanded and will lose many of them in the long run as the new battle of federal vs states shapes up. I had previously referred to this as the Great Divestment, but didn't think it was coming quite this quickly. There may be a better name for it, but this is the beginning of fiscal divestment in the states by the federal government and the assertion of state and local power, which will ultimately define 'citizen' more than any federal law or agency. Its called Jeffersonian Democracy.

Offline sesh

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2017, 01:05:05 PM »
Here's the web page cited by TMA for a roundup of Trump vs Clinton predictions:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9205

While tropical astrologers batted somewhat worse, there are plenty of sidereal astrologers who predicted that Clinton would win. I don't think it's tropical vs sideral/Jyotish so much as bad technique, either by itself, or arising out of bias. Clearly, if you *want* X (Clinton or Trump) to win, you will (a) believe in whatever dubious birth data suits your purpose, and (b) use only those measurements (however arcane or unsupported by solid sampling they may be) that bolster your case.

I don't think there is any reason to be ashamed or even embarrassed by predictions gone awry, as long as you can go back to your prediction and see where it went wrong. Too many measurements (solar arcs, transits, secondary progressions, inauguration chart, aries ingress, fixed stars), unwillingness to firmly anchor the analysis on key measurements (major solar arcs), paying too much attention to transits after the inauguration to discount a victory (Saturn to Moon and Sun, look at that much stress and downbeat-ness afterward, so that means defeat now), etc. Vedic astrologers have their own plethora of data points: dasas, transits, nakshatras, amsa charts, ashtakavarga points, etc. One particular reasoning used by some Vedic astrologers was that Trump was running his last bhukti (Mars) in the Rahu dasa, and what Rahu giveth, Rahu taketh away, so Trump will lose. Bad call.

Anyway, 20-20 hindsight. We are all pretty darn subjective, practicing astrology doesn't make it go away. We see what we want to see, and will use whatever data/measurements it takes to support our belief.

Sesh


Offline Pamela Young

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Re: Use of Tropical Zodiac Responsible for Failure to Predict Trump's Win?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2017, 02:30:31 PM »
Thank you so much, Sesh.  I hadn't realized so many sidereal astrologers got it wrong; I feel a lot better now.