Author Topic: Problem with 1958 times for Belleville, Illinois in Solar Fire program  (Read 1483 times)

Offline Phillip

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Hello,
        I am hoping to solve this problem in this forum where there are many American astrologers. I have been aware of the discrepancies in various US states around DST but it is causing a headache with one client at the moment.

She swears she is Gemini rising and say many other astrologers she has had readings with, all say Gemini. But my calculations come up consistently Cancer rising for this data on Solar Fire: July 28 1958. 3.01 am Belleville, Illinois. I get 9 Cancer 45'. The degree of the Gemini rising would be 1 hour earlier than the given time. As you know if you use Solar Fire, if you just tab through the fields when entering data, Illinois defaults to -6hours CST but when going into the atlas of solar fire you get this message:

“At this time Illinois laws said to record birth times in standard time, even though daylight savings time was in effect. If you wish to enter a recorded time instead of a clock time, then you should manually set the time zone to CST – 6 hours.” How do you distinguish between “recorded time instead of clock time”?

It’s a very ambiguous phrase. My client just sent me her birth certificate with the time recorded on it, so does that qualify as “recorded time”? (the default – 6 hours) So what qualifies as “clock time”, the subtracted DST? She told me that six other astrologers have her chart at -5 hours which gives a different rising sign, Gemini.

Graham Dawson, creator of Solar Fire Astrology Software:
“I agree the SF message is oddly worded - perhaps it is a generic message which should not actually have been displayed in this instance. However, if the birth certificate was created according to law, it would have it's stated birth time in CST -6 timezone, whether or not DST was in effect.

To instead use CDT -5, you would firstly have to believe both a) that DST was in effect on that date in that location and b) that the law was not applied to this birth certificate (or else wasn't actually even in effect at that time). Both of those are potentially possible, but my feeling is that CST -6 is the most likely correct timezone.

I'm puzzled why apparently six other astrologers would settle on CDT -5 without all having access to some other type of evidence that we and the client do not. Any chance that the first astrologer incorrectly guessed CDT, and then all the five following astrologers were convinced by the client to follow suit, based on the "authority" of the first one? It wouldn't be the first time that people were unduly influenced by an assumed "authority" awarded to others. Anyway, good luck with the client.

Timezone history for Illinois is notorious for its messiness and general purpose sources won't be as interested in accuracy as an astrologically vetted source, but bear in mind that even astrological sources (such as ACS atlas) are fallible. And yes - Americans astrologers will likely be better informed - especially anyone who themselves deal a lot with Illinois births."

Well there you have it, I am hoping to resolve this issue which has been dragging along for a while in this Mercury retro period. I know there are a lot of good astrologers on this forum, so I am hoping that this will be resolved. Thanks for your attention. (I have attached a file for the data.)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 01:09:43 AM by Phillip »

Offline Phillip

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I will answer my own question that might be of use for other astrologers when it comes to tricky DST's.

Zane Stein, Astrologer, Solar Fire Software representative USA

I saw your message about chart in Illiniois with the disputed time zone.  I have an answer in two parts, which should explain why there is a time discrepancy. First, it is important to know that in 1959, the entire state of Illinois adopted DST.  But it was a gradual coming to that, and parts of the state even as late as 1958 did not observe DST.
Because of this, the STATE government implemented a law in the 1950’s which said, basically, that all birth times were to be recorded in Standard Time in Illinois, whether DST was in effect in that city or now.  Belleville WAS one of the cities, in 1958, that had DST, from April 27 – October 26.
 
However, whether you use DST for the chart or not depends on where they were born.  If they were born in a hospital, then even though your time change books may say DST was in effect, you would use CST.  On the other hand, if they were born at home, as many people were back then, the time recorded would have been the time on the house clock, and so you would use DST.
 
Unfortunately, many astrologers use the time they find for a particular state, but don’t research it more deeply to discover the above information. So, check with your client.  Was she a home birth, or born in a hospital.  Then you will know which chart to use for her.
 
Sincerely,
Zane B Stein for Esoteric Technologies
___________________________________

Graham Dawson, creator of Solar Fire Astrology Software
“I agree the SF message is oddly worded - perhaps it is a generic message which should not actually have been displayed in this instance because DST wasn't even in effect on that date in that location. However, if the birth certificate was created according to law, it would have it's stated birth time in CST -6 timezone, whether or not DST was in effect. To instead use CDT -5, you would firstly have to believe both a) that DST was in effect on that date in that location and b) that the law was not applied to this birth certificate (or else wasn't actually even in effect at that time).
 
Both of those are potentially possible, but my feeling is that CST -6 is the most likely correct timezone. I'm puzzled why apparently six other astrologers would settle on CDT -5 without all having access to some other type of evidence that we and the client do not. Any chance that the first astrologer incorrectly guessed CDT, and then all the five following astrologers were convinced by the client to follow suit, based on the "authority" of the first one? It wouldn't be the first time that people were unduly influenced by an assumed "authority" awarded to others. Timezone history for Illinois is notorious for its messiness and general purpose sources won't be as interested in accuracy as an astrologically vetted source, but bear in mind that even astrological sources (such as ACS) are fallible. And yes - Americans astrologers will likely be better informed - especially anyone who themselves deal a lot with Illinois births.”

Offline Don Borkowski

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One of my collegiate   friends was born in Hinsdale, Illinois in 1950.  To clarify my dilemma, I constructed 2 charts, one for CST and one for CDT, and tested them both for significant dates.

Don B.
True astrology is that which can be taught to other people who can then replicate the teachers' conclusions through their own effort.  --Don Borkowski in July 1983 issue of MERCURY HOUR