Author Topic: To Move Or Not To Move?  (Read 7891 times)

Offline Halina

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To Move Or Not To Move?
« on: December 12, 2018, 07:56:49 AM »
      Pamela asks the question whether she should move or stay put.   Below is her horary chart based on the time she posted the question.    Can someone answer her question?

amymaddalozzo

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 01:09:31 PM »
Halina   I sort of answered the question in the other section--my answer is no.  Uranus in the 4th house in badly aspected--square moon in the 2rd house, some money issue and opposed venus in the 10th house   amy

Offline Daleth

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 09:37:22 PM »
Halina   I sort of answered the question in the other section--my answer is no.  Uranus in the 4th house in badly aspected--square moon in the 2rd house, some money issue and opposed venus in the 10th house   amy

Amy, don't those aspects just reflect the nature of the question? Also, re the Moon in the 2nd, it doesn't square Uranus and its square to Venus is separating, so not relevant in horary except to the extent it says something about the past.

If this question was "Should I move," then the significators for Pamela are ascendant-ruler Jupiter, potentially also the Sun (since it's conjunct the ascendant), the first-house planets (Saturn and Pluto in Cap), and also the Moon. The significators for her home/a possible move are IC ruler Mars and that 4th house Uranus. That's a lot of significators even if we omit the Sun on the basis that it's actually in the 12th. Thus a complex and fraught question.

But here are the aspects between significators:

- Jupiter at 7 Sag approaching trine to Uranus at 28 Aries (although Uranus goes back into Taurus before that trine perfects -- but then again, Jupiter goes into Capricorn after that and eventually, if you check your 2019 ephemeris, you'll see that the trine is perfected at 2'56" Taurus and Capricorn; I'd love to hear a horary specialist's take on that). Normally a trine between significators means the answer to the question is yes. I don't know if this one counts, though, due to the change in signs.

- Sun approaching trine to Uranus. Again, normally a trine between significators means yes.

- Moon approaching sextile to Uranus. Normally a sextile between significators means yes.

- No squares or oppositions to Uranus (Uranus goes back into Taurus before the Capricorn Saturn or Pluto get anywhere near a square to its current late degree of Aries -- there's no aspect at all between those significators), so there's an absence of "no" answers relating to Uranus.

- Mars at 16 Pisces applies to a sextile with Pluto at 19 Capricorn. Again, normally a sextile between significators means yes.

- There are no other applying aspects between Mars and any other significators: the Sun at 19 Sag is past the square, Jupiter at 7 Sag will not reach 16 Sag before Mars changes sign (same goes for Saturn at 9 Cap), and there's no aspect with the Moon. So with Mars too, there are no aspects that answer "no" to the question.

So the yesses certainly seem to outweigh the no's.

Also, I'm intrigued by the just-past-exact quincunx between Gemini and Uranus. Pamela mentioned harassment being a reason she's considering moving. If she knows who the harasser is, i.e. if it's an "open enemy," then they're indicated by the 7th house, which is empty but ruled by Mercury. Quincunxes in horary normally suggest that something needs to change; this quincunx is in the past. That seems to reflect the fact that an enemy's actions have made Pamela think something needs to change (quincunx), drastically (Uranus), with respect to her residence (4th house). Of course, if she doesn't know the harasser then this may not be relevant. That possibility is suggested by the presence of two significators in the 12th house of secret enemies.

Offline Antonio

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2018, 01:45:44 AM »
Thank you Halina, Amy and Daleth for taking your time to work things out for Pam. For speaking of time, I notice that the Horary chart was erected for Pam's location, using the time stamp of her post in this Forum. Maybe it was done intentionally... if not,  I have adressed this subject here: https://noeltyl.com/discussion/index.php?topic=8929.0

My conclusion was/is that the time displayed in this Forum is PST (all year). EST (Eastern Standard Time) is 3 hours ahead of PST (Pacific Standard Time). So, when it is 08:05 AM in "Forum Time" it will be 11:05 AM EST in Guelph, Ontario.

IMO, the chart time should be calculated for 11:05:21 AM EST, Guelph, Ontario. In any case, a Horary Chart can also be erected by an astrologer for his/her own time and location, when the astrologer receives and understands the question: https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/horaryquestion.html#why

p.s.: My emphasis goes to the fact that the querent needs to be very clear (and simple) about what the question is. For example, I recall reading that moving from one place to another, we use the 4th house for where we are now (usually) and the 7th house (the 4th from the 4th) for the relocated place.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 04:35:13 AM by Antonio »

amymaddalozzo

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2018, 05:08:50 AM »
Thanks Antonio   I do not claim to know that much about horary charts
By the way, do you have an opinion on what I called "mutual progressions" that I have coming up in 2020?  Progressed mercury  will be conjunct natal mars and around the same time, progressed mars will be square natal mercury.  Thanks   AMy

Offline Daleth

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2018, 06:34:07 AM »
I notice that the Horary chart was erected for Pam's location, using the time stamp of her post in this Forum. Maybe it was done intentionally... if not,  I have adressed this subject here: https://noeltyl.com/discussion/index.php?topic=8929.0

My conclusion was/is that the time displayed in this Forum is PST (all year). EST (Eastern Standard Time) is 3 hours ahead of PST (Pacific Standard Time). So, when it is 08:05 AM in "Forum Time" it will be 11:05 AM EST in Guelph, Ontario.

IMO, the chart time should be calculated for 11:05:21 AM EST, Guelph, Ontario.

Very interesting, I hadn't even considered whether the right time was used. What impact does that have on the chart?

Offline Antonio

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2018, 06:53:00 AM »
Thanks Antonio   I do not claim to know that much about horary charts. AMy

Same here, Amy... but there's something that catchs my tired eyes, without much strain: In a chart for 11:05 AM, Mercury seems very significant, not only for its general symbolism or the houses it rules, but for being "at the end of its rope" (Ivy Jacobson), impatient, eager to change, not just of sign but also of house (maybe not to be taken literally). Usually this critical position is not considered beneficial ... but being in trine with the PF at the Aries point, who knows? Ok, it is separating, but Jupiter-MC do trine the Fortuna!  ::)

I also found it interesting that, using the Regiomontanus house system, both the Sun and Saturn move over the cusps of the 11th and 12th houses, respectively. Saturn (Asc ruler) is parallel to the Sun (7th ruler). It shows some concordance between two major significators... Another significator, Mercury, is also parallel the Asc... but all the other factors will have to be considered... by those who know Horary and better English than me.  :D

Regarding your "mutual progressions," I suppose it means a double emphasis on whatever those two planets rule and play on your natal chart. Aside from not being familiar with your bc, I believe you are a seasoned astrologer and your  own interpretation is just as valid. Beside, you have until 2020 to figure it all out.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 08:54:36 AM by Antonio »

Offline Antonio

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2018, 07:11:38 AM »
Quote
Very interesting, I hadn't even considered whether the right time was used. What impact does that have on the chart? Daleth

Hi Daleth,

Hope this helps. Here's the chart for 11:05 AM EST, Guelph, Ontario. Regiomontanus houses.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:14:28 AM by Antonio »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2018, 09:29:43 AM »
Halina   I sort of answered the question in the other section--my answer is no.  Uranus in the 4th house in badly aspected--square moon in the 2rd house, some money issue and opposed venus in the 10th house   amy

Amy, thanks for your thoughts on this; I will say more in reply to your comment on the other thread.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 09:30:50 AM »
      Pamela asks the question whether she should move or stay put.   Below is her horary chart based on the time she posted the question.    Can someone answer her question?

Halina, thanks again for posting the chart; much appreciated.

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 09:35:44 AM »
Halina   I sort of answered the question in the other section--my answer is no.  Uranus in the 4th house in badly aspected--square moon in the 2rd house, some money issue and opposed venus in the 10th house   amy

Amy, don't those aspects just reflect the nature of the question? Also, re the Moon in the 2nd, it doesn't square Uranus and its square to Venus is separating, so not relevant in horary except to the extent it says something about the past.

If this question was "Should I move," then the significators for Pamela are ascendant-ruler Jupiter, potentially also the Sun (since it's conjunct the ascendant), the first-house planets (Saturn and Pluto in Cap), and also the Moon. The significators for her home/a possible move are IC ruler Mars and that 4th house Uranus. That's a lot of significators even if we omit the Sun on the basis that it's actually in the 12th. Thus a complex and fraught question.

But here are the aspects between significators:

- Jupiter at 7 Sag approaching trine to Uranus at 28 Aries (although Uranus goes back into Taurus before that trine perfects -- but then again, Jupiter goes into Capricorn after that and eventually, if you check your 2019 ephemeris, you'll see that the trine is perfected at 2'56" Taurus and Capricorn; I'd love to hear a horary specialist's take on that). Normally a trine between significators means the answer to the question is yes. I don't know if this one counts, though, due to the change in signs.

- Sun approaching trine to Uranus. Again, normally a trine between significators means yes.

- Moon approaching sextile to Uranus. Normally a sextile between significators means yes.

- No squares or oppositions to Uranus (Uranus goes back into Taurus before the Capricorn Saturn or Pluto get anywhere near a square to its current late degree of Aries -- there's no aspect at all between those significators), so there's an absence of "no" answers relating to Uranus.

- Mars at 16 Pisces applies to a sextile with Pluto at 19 Capricorn. Again, normally a sextile between significators means yes.

- There are no other applying aspects between Mars and any other significators: the Sun at 19 Sag is past the square, Jupiter at 7 Sag will not reach 16 Sag before Mars changes sign (same goes for Saturn at 9 Cap), and there's no aspect with the Moon. So with Mars too, there are no aspects that answer "no" to the question.

So the yesses certainly seem to outweigh the no's.

Also, I'm intrigued by the just-past-exact quincunx between Gemini and Uranus. Pamela mentioned harassment being a reason she's considering moving. If she knows who the harasser is, i.e. if it's an "open enemy," then they're indicated by the 7th house, which is empty but ruled by Mercury. Quincunxes in horary normally suggest that something needs to change; this quincunx is in the past. That seems to reflect the fact that an enemy's actions have made Pamela think something needs to change (quincunx), drastically (Uranus), with respect to her residence (4th house). Of course, if she doesn't know the harasser then this may not be relevant. That possibility is suggested by the presence of two significators in the 12th house of secret enemies.

Daleth, thank you so much for your thoughts on my situation; I really appreciate all the effort you put into answering this question for me.  According to what you say, it certainly seems likely that I will be moving.  It's certainly true that a big part of why I think I should move is because of the harassment, which I have to say is by secret enemies, not open.  I have my suspicions as to who is responsible, but I have absolutely no hard evidence, and anyway it's possible that I'm wrong.  But I've begun to think that it will never end as long as I'm in this particular house, and that if I want to have a chance of it ending, I should get out of here. 

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 09:44:02 AM »
Thank you Halina, Amy and Daleth for taking your time to work things out for Pam. For speaking of time, I notice that the Horary chart was erected for Pam's location, using the time stamp of her post in this Forum. Maybe it was done intentionally... if not,  I have adressed this subject here: https://noeltyl.com/discussion/index.php?topic=8929.0

My conclusion was/is that the time displayed in this Forum is PST (all year). EST (Eastern Standard Time) is 3 hours ahead of PST (Pacific Standard Time). So, when it is 08:05 AM in "Forum Time" it will be 11:05 AM EST in Guelph, Ontario.

IMO, the chart time should be calculated for 11:05:21 AM EST, Guelph, Ontario. In any case, a Horary Chart can also be erected by an astrologer for his/her own time and location, when the astrologer receives and understands the question: https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/horaryquestion.html#why

p.s.: My emphasis goes to the fact that the querent needs to be very clear (and simple) about what the question is. For example, I recall reading that moving from one place to another, we use the 4th house for where we are now (usually) and the 7th house (the 4th from the 4th) for the relocated place.

Antonio, thank you very much for this information, and for the chart you posted; I was totally familiar with this issue.  I have to say, it seems counterintuitive to me that a time other than the one at which I posed my question would be used.  But then, I didn't actually pose the question, 'When should I move?'  Actually, I deliberately didn't post in the horary section because I don't tend to use horaries; I find the rules for using them can seem abstruse, if not downright arbitrary.  This issue you raise of the correct time to use is a perfect example.

Offline Halina

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 01:18:44 PM »
       When Pamela posted the question, it was 8:05:21 AM in Phoennix where Noel Lives and where her question was recorded.
Phoenix, Arizona is NOT on Pacific time, it's on Mountain Standard time.....here's the proof
       https://www.travelmath.com/time-change/from/Phoenix,+AZ/to/Toronto,+Canada
Toronto or Guelph are 2 hours ahead of Noel's Phoenix time.    So Pamela actually posted her question at 10:05:21am.
      Here is the Horary chart for that time:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 01:24:25 PM by Halina »

Offline Pamela Young

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 04:28:17 AM »
Thank you for your thoughts on this issue, Halina.  The three charts (the original you posted, Antonio's and now your latest one), are pretty different; I have no idea which one is correct, if any.  As I've said, I tend not to use horaries, and I think for the subject of whether or not I should/will move, I'll stick to just looking at the transits, progressions and solar arcs to my natal.  But again, thank you, and thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this thread.

Offline Antonio

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Re: To Move Or Not To Move?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 08:36:12 AM »
Quote
Actually, I deliberately didn't post in the horary section because I don't tend to use horaries;

Halina found it to be a good topic for Horary and so she posted it in this section. Inadvertedly, you raised an interesting and perfectly phrased question for the Horary aficionado! "To Move Or Not To Move?"; "Should I Stay Or Should I Go"; "Brexit or Remain", all (in)popular dilemmas shared by millions of souls!

Quote
I find the rules for using them can seem abstruse, if not downright arbitrary.  This issue you raise of the correct time to use is a perfect example.
Well, they may seem, at least, as much abstruse and arbitrary as so many other rules in our Astrology.

"Any definition of horary has to accept that it is a method of divination, heavily reliant upon symbolic appreciation. The philosophy that lies at the heart of horary is the one that drives the whole spectrum of astrological techniques - firstly, that significant moments are never randomly selected, but act as part of a finely tuned enfoldment that reveals its offspring to consciousness at an exact moment of cosmic sympathy. The same applies regardless of whether the birth is that of a child, a nation, an institution or a realization."

[...] whereas modern natal astrology generally gives free reign to the creative interpretation of astrology's symbolic language, viewing planetary movements primarily as insights to our internal drives; in horary such an approach would be far too lax and open to a wide array of possible manifestations. It would make a confident assessment of what is actually taking place in the outer life impossible. To develop a workable and useful method of analyzing horary charts, astrological symbolism must be reduced down to its most mundane application, given the context of the question.

At a high level, the inherent nature of Saturn may be all about the process of structuring, compressing, limitation and solidification; but horary needs to know about its lowest undane level - that it may be symbolizing the wall that marks the boundary of the garden." © Deborah Houlding 2003 http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html

I hope things turn out for the best. If not the way you planned at least in the way you needed most!