To Move Or Not To Move?

[Antonio]

       When Pamela posted the question, it was 8:05:21 AM in Phoennix where Noel Lives and where her question was recorded.
Phoenix, Arizona is NOT on Pacific time, it's on Mountain Standard time.....here's the proof
       https://www.travelmath.com/time-change/from/Phoenix,+AZ/to/Toronto,+Canada
Toronto or Guelph are 2 hours ahead of Noel's Phoenix time.    So Pamela actually posted her question at 10:05:21am.
      Here is the Horary chart for that time:

In abstract, maybe, but in mundane terms the Tyl Forum is not located at Noel's place. It is materially located at the website servers in Anaheim, CA. The displayed time here is from that location. Since the host didn't configure their servers when daylight time is observed, it is simpler to say that the Forum Time is always 8 hours behind Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Instead of PST, rename it NTF time, if you wish...

The idea of using the coordinates of Guelph, Ontario, mixed with the time that the cuckoo clock (made in Germany) cuckooed at Noel's home is, at least, original!
Wait just a sec and I'll check if it is legit .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62XLdOKo-e8

Okay, the stone remains in place and I think I heard him say: "time is an illusion! i care not f'r horaries anymore!"

Daleth is the one who did most of the interpretive work. If I had to choose a time and place, I would consider the place and time where/when she decided to consider the matter. This is how it works better, if it were a confidential relationship, one to one, between the astrologer and the querent. However, as she focused her mind on the first chart/data you posted, even if the time was wrong, that's the way the Universe has presented it to her. She accepted it without reservation. As such, there is no need for more charts. 

[Pamela Young]

Actually, I deliberately didn't post in the horary section because I don't tend to use horaries;

Halina found it to be a good topic for Horary and so she posted it in this section. Inadvertedly, you raised an interesting and perfectly phrased question for the Horary aficionado! "To Move Or Not To Move?"; "Should I Stay Or Should I Go"; "Brexit or Remain", all (in)popular dilemmas shared by millions of souls!

I find the rules for using them can seem abstruse, if not downright arbitrary.  This issue you raise of the correct time to use is a perfect example.

Well, they may seem, at least, as much abstruse and arbitrary as so many other rules in our Astrology.

"Any definition of horary has to accept that it is a method of divination, heavily reliant upon symbolic appreciation. The philosophy that lies at the heart of horary is the one that drives the whole spectrum of astrological techniques - firstly, that significant moments are never randomly selected, but act as part of a finely tuned enfoldment that reveals its offspring to consciousness at an exact moment of cosmic sympathy. The same applies regardless of whether the birth is that of a child, a nation, an institution or a realization."

[...] whereas modern natal astrology generally gives free reign to the creative interpretation of astrology's symbolic language, viewing planetary movements primarily as insights to our internal drives; in horary such an approach would be far too lax and open to a wide array of possible manifestations. It would make a confident assessment of what is actually taking place in the outer life impossible. To develop a workable and useful method of analyzing horary charts, astrological symbolism must be reduced down to its most mundane application, given the context of the question.

At a high level, the inherent nature of Saturn may be all about the process of structuring, compressing, limitation and solidification; but horary needs to know about its lowest undane level - that it may be symbolizing the wall that marks the boundary of the garden." © Deborah Houlding 2003 http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html

I hope things turn out for the best. If not the way you planned at least in the way you needed most!

Fair enough, but WHICH significant moment?  I would think that it should at least be required that there be consensus about how to choose the correct moment, and it would seem that there isn't.  Three different charts have been presented, which give very different results.  Just saying.

[Pamela Young]

       When Pamela posted the question, it was 8:05:21 AM in Phoennix where Noel Lives and where her question was recorded.
Phoenix, Arizona is NOT on Pacific time, it's on Mountain Standard time.....here's the proof
       https://www.travelmath.com/time-change/from/Phoenix,+AZ/to/Toronto,+Canada
Toronto or Guelph are 2 hours ahead of Noel's Phoenix time.    So Pamela actually posted her question at 10:05:21am.
      Here is the Horary chart for that time:

In abstract, maybe, but in mundane terms the Tyl Forum is not located at Noel's place. It is materially located at the website servers in Anaheim, CA. The displayed time here is from that location. Since the host didn't configure their servers when daylight time is observed, it is simpler to say that the Forum Time is always 8 hours behind Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Instead of PST, rename it NTF time, if you wish...

The idea of using the coordinates of Guelph, Ontario, mixed with the time that the cuckoo clock (made in Germany) cuckooed at Noel's home is, at least, original!
Wait just a sec and I'll check if it is legit .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62XLdOKo-e8

Okay, the stone remains in place and I think I heard him say: "time is an illusion! i care not f'r horaries anymore!"

Daleth is the one who did most of the interpretive work. If I had to choose a time and place, I would consider the place and time where/when she decided to consider the matter. This is how it works better, if it were a confidential relationship, one to one, between the astrologer and the querent. However, as she focused her mind on the first chart/data you posted, even if the time was wrong, that's the way the Universe has presented it to her. She accepted it without reservation. As such, there is no need for more charts.

I would agree; again, many thanks to Daleth for all her work on this. 

[Daleth]

Aw, you're welcome!

I saw something interesting at Renaissance Astrology about the proper time and place to use for horary. They use the time and place of the astrologer at the moment the astrologer receives the question. This explanation makes sense to me -- bolding the especially resonant part:

"Many clients are confused when I use my time, date and location ("the received time") for the chart of a horary question, rather than using the time, date and place that they asked the question ("the asked time"). Horary uses the birth of a question, rather than the birth of a person, so the issue of when a question is born is key. You have no doubt been thinking about your question for some time, so it would be hard to really pin down when you first thought of it. Our traditional sources and my experience bear out that the question is really born when you ask it of the astrologer and thus when the astrologer receives and understands the question." https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/horaryquestion.html#why

That raises the question of what time to use when a chart is posted on a forum and several astrologers receive it at different times. I think we should go with the first astrologer's time and place, since once that astrologer has received the question, the question has been born.

[Pamela Young]

Maybe; I still find the whole thing too unreliable to use for anything important.