Solar arcs and Primary directions

[adol33]

http://rosemarcus.com/astrolink/progressions/

Glad to see that there are other astrologers that look at the secondary chart as a standalone chart (what I loosely call progressed geometry). I still have to check out whether the converse progressed standalone chart works or has any information we can use.

I think that modern astrologers tend to overemphasize the "subjective" nature of the progressed chart, at least Rose acknowledges the fact that progressions do in fact cause events. Lol, the wicked part of me wants to type, "subjective my ass, progressions are your life in action".

Just one other point that pieces off Pluto opposing my Mars at the moment. Modern astrologers mostly into this soul learning stuff, the birth chart is your karmic map etc. Note that if a certain lesson is to be learnt or re-learnt, then that will probably be the theme of the life, but a lot of the rest is incidental, it has to be. Why I say this is just try and get the perfect electional chart for setting up a new venture. You will start by looking for well aspected planets, then look at their dignities, houses etc, then try and refine it by putting them all in nice houses, on angles etc, then ulitmately you'll find that there are trade-offs to be made, compromises you have to make. We can't just zoot the planets all around to form the chart we want, we have to fit in with certain positions that we don't like.

Same with births, if we do play any part in the preparation of ours. We have to endure certain aspects that have nothing to do with our karmic development, they are just spin-offs of the main structure we chose or are given.

Having said that, I do believe that the time of day and house positions are used to alleviate or strengthen certain aspects and conditions. An example of this, just for my own interest lol, is my Mercury-Sun cazimi. I chose that as the main aspect of my life. It took me a full day to be born, and only finally when my mother lapsed into unconsciousness did they drag me out I think. I was waiting for Mercury to be in the middle of the Sun in Scorpio. I feel that in my deepest water, in fact, I know it as a truth. But the problem with that was there was zip around almost to sustain me for my life, no Venus, no Jupiter, just pure lack. And that is why I think I chose the birth time of 8.10pm so that at least I would get Venus sextile my POF. Without that I would be completely destitute now.

And finally, just a thought I've always had, is that there are certain trump cards or gifts handed out when a birth chart's trade-offs are too severe or undeserved by the soul. I believe astrology is one of them. So, if you are done-in in this world because of a certain life lesson you need to learn, poorer or more handicapped than you really deserve to be or are because of the unfortunate spin-offs of your natal planet chart positions, then the universe hands out these trump cards or gifts to make it up to you.

Don't quote me though lol.
luckydays dot tv is dead.
long live luckydays dot tv
My POF on the cusp of my 5th, sextile Venus.
Not powerful enough to sustain more than 15 years full time.
Back to the grind.

[Halina]

http://rosemarcus.com/astrolink/progressions/

Glad to see that there are other astrologers that look at the secondary chart as a standalone chart (what I loosely call progressed geometry). I still have to check out whether the converse progressed standalone chart works or has any information we can use.

I think that modern astrologers tend to overemphasize the "subjective" nature of the progressed chart, at least Rose acknowledges the fact that progressions do in fact cause events. Lol, the wicked part of me wants to type, "subjective my ass, progressions are your life in action".

Just one other point that pieces off Pluto opposing my Mars at the moment. Modern astrologers mostly into this soul learning stuff, the birth chart is your karmic map etc. Note that if a certain lesson is to be learnt or re-learnt, then that will probably be the theme of the life, but a lot of the rest is incidental, it has to be. Why I say this is just try and get the perfect electional chart for setting up a new venture. You will start by looking for well aspected planets, then look at their dignities, houses etc, then try and refine it by putting them all in nice houses, on angles etc, then ulitmately you'll find that there are trade-offs to be made, compromises you have to make. We can't just zoot the planets all around to form the chart we want, we have to fit in with certain positions that we don't like.

Same with births, if we do play any part in the preparation of ours. We have to endure certain aspects that have nothing to do with our karmic development, they are just spin-offs of the main structure we chose or are given.

Having said that, I do believe that the time of day and house positions are used to alleviate or strengthen certain aspects and conditions. An example of this, just for my own interest lol, is my Mercury-Sun cazimi. I chose that as the main aspect of my life. It took me a full day to be born, and only finally when my mother lapsed into unconsciousness did they drag me out I think. I was waiting for Mercury to be in the middle of the Sun in Scorpio. I feel that in my deepest water, in fact, I know it as a truth. But the problem with that was there was zip around almost to sustain me for my life, no Venus, no Jupiter, just pure lack. And that is why I think I chose the birth time of 8.10pm so that at least I would get Venus sextile my POF. Without that I would be completely destitute now.

And finally, just a thought I've always had, is that there are certain trump cards or gifts handed out when a birth chart's trade-offs are too severe or undeserved by the soul. I believe astrology is one of them. So, if you are done-in in this world because of a certain life lesson you need to learn, poorer or more handicapped than you really deserve to be or are because of the unfortunate spin-offs of your natal planet chart positions, then the universe hands out these trump cards or gifts to make it up to you.

Don't quote me though lol.
luckydays dot tv is dead.
long live luckydays dot tv
My POF on the cusp of my 5th, sextile Venus.
Not powerful enough to sustain more than 15 years full time.
Back to the grind.

[Kannon McAfee]

Barbara, 

Primary directions were dropped by most modern astrologers because:

1) There is little agreement on what exact arc distance is the equivalent of "1 year", lack of total agreement as to what "1 year" means, or how to even apply the underlying assumptions/metaphor (calculate them).
- Naibod equivalency:  1 degree of arc = 1.0146 years of life
(360° circle divided by 365.2422 days)
- Cardan:  360 / 365 = 1.0135
(Naibod and Caran were applying Right Ascension to their notion of culminating measures)
- Ptolemy 1° = 1 years of life
- Kolev uses length of Mean Lunar Year:  1° = 0.9844 years of life
- Kepler and Placidus interject others considerations

(Video by David Cochrane, programmer - https://youtu.be/Lb0ph6RUDxg)

2) Inconsistency in correlations/results.

3) If the radix is not accurate to within just a few minutes arc, then the entire edifice of a primary progressed chart falls apart.

4) Thus it is not a very good system for 'fudging" with estimation.

Astrology is a language that builds metaphor with physical phenomenon. The most important of these planetary and astronomical dynamics is actually the rotation of the earth. Astronomical dynamics are  still at its core earth-based, geocentric, since we view everything as if on the moving canvas revealed in the round by Earth's rotation.

When we progress (secondary method) in day-for-a-year fashion, we are using an equivalency to build a metaphor. We are saying a single rotation of the earth on its axis for a single orbit of the earth around its system axis, the sun. Everything that happens in the first rotation of the earth after your birth is projected onto the 1st year of your life in progression (except for calculated points). The metaphor has internal consistency (not necessarily the same as the method used to execute it).

The disagreements related to the underlying metaphor of primary directions and its application were never resolved. So astrologers came up with a better system in secondary progressions. I have suggested to David Cochrane we can perfect this system by using true progression of the Asc and calculated points to move all the way through the zodiac as the earth actually rotates so that our day-for-year equivalency is 100% true.

Symbolism is not enough. Our metaphors have to provide a solid foundation from coordinated natural occurrences. Otherwise if it is taken as all mysticism anyway, we can just make stuff up.

[Isaac Starkman]

"Primary directions were dropped by most modern astrologers"
As Cochrane mentioned in his video, Primary Directions, which was the most popular technique since the first century A.D. faded in popularity ONLY in modern times AND ARE NOW BEING REVIVED". Cochrane mentioned that he got a lot of requests to explain P.D. I have count at least 14 programs that Primary Directions are part of it or the main part, some of them are free software.
Cochrance's videos on P.D. are excellent, but it is a pity that he doesn't include in his program Sirius the Primary Directions in Topocentric system as was developed by Kuhr, Polish, Page and Marr.
In the last years Juan Revilla add to his free program Riyal the Topocentric version.
So, while there are many astrologers that seek only the easy systems like transits, secondary, solar arc, there are a lot of young astrologers that show increasing interest in P.D.     

 

"1) There is little agreement on what exact arc distance is the equivalent of "1 year", lack of total agreement as to what "1 year" means, or how to even apply the underlying assumptions/metaphor (calculate them).
- Naibod equivalency:  1 degree of arc = 1.0146 years of life
(360° circle divided by 365.2422 days)
- Cardan:  360 / 365 = 1.0135
(Naibod and Caran were applying Right Ascension to their notion of culminating measures)
- Ptolemy 1° = 1 years of life
- Kolev uses length of Mean Lunar Year:  1° = 0.9844 years of life
- Kepler and Placidus interject others considerations

(Video by David Cochrane, programmer - https://youtu.be/Lb0ph6RUDxg)"

The originators of P.D. in Topocentric system has solved this problem years ago: only Naibod key is the correct one. Many years of work made by Marr, Estadella, James Alexander and mine research with thousands of events confirm this.

"2) Inconsistency in correlations/results."
Incorrect. See Predictive Astrology by Juan Estadella,  2nd edition, Appendix II


"3) If the radix is not accurate to within just a few minutes arc, then the entire edifice of a primary progressed chart falls apart."

True, but the same for the other popular technques like secondary: the most important aspects are the angular aspects, that is, for MC and Asc and if one doesn't have the exact MC, one simply can't see these aspects. In other words, each chart need a rectification- or you simply work on "out of focus" chart.


James Alexander demonstrated the primary directions in his chart; he gave only one aspect to each event while in practice there are several events with 2 appropriate aspects and even 3 aspects. . James' birth time was carefully recorded by his grandfather and even published it in the local newspaper. For many years he tried to rectify his chart, but only with P.D. in Topocentric he was successful and validated it with at least 4 other systems: secondary, PSSR, transits, age harmonics.
In which other system you can see Desc 180 Node for his first marriage and Desc 180 Venus for his second marriage with so tight orbs, just to mention 2 events… you can't.
I checked all the 14 events (except no 14, trip to Italy- don't have the date) with secondary directions:
1. Grandmother died
Converse Venus 120 converse Neptune 0'
Converse MC 90 Mars 3'
2. Second marriage
Converse MC 180 Venus 8'
3. Son born 30 Aug 2001
MC 60 Jup
4. Step Father died
Converse MC 0 Saturn 2'
No other secondaries with angles or houses. So, if one is trying to rectify his chart with only the secondaries- I would say that he is in trouble, especially if one is refusing to use the converse mode…

[Isaac Starkman]

Thanks, OD.  Do you mind explaining briefly what is Natal primary directions, vs Epoch primary directions? 

If someone is born with the Sun in the 10th house, that there will be a primary directions of the Sun to conjunct the MC at a young age....or any other planet in the 10th.  Right?

I am having a problem with believing what I see on astrodentiest, yet it must be correct, or why would they offer it.  But..I am under the assumption that the whole set of planets moves in unison (as the earth turns) and keeps the same space between them...but it does not appear that way according to the aspects that are listed.  I could allow for some variation - because of the right ascension, but...not that much.

I suppose I must purchase a book if I wish to understand it.

We are working with two different charts. For explanation how to find the epoch see my article:
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/080630.html
I have to emphasis that the epoch is NOT the time of ejaculation but the fertilization which usually occurred 1-2 days after coitus. Alexander Marr has the date of his only meeting with his wife during the war and his son was born after 9 months with Asc in the same sign as the Moon 2 days after the coitus.
It is amazing that we have 2 different charts but all the techniques are working also in the epoch, as James demonstrate in his chart.
Juan Estadella's book Predictive Astrology has a full explanation. You can download it free in his website: www.juanestadella.com

[James Williams]

Thank you again Isaac.  It's too bad that so many disrespect your decades of research without ever examining it.  And they think they know better...

Sad...

You and your lifetime of work are very much appreciated and respected by those who know, Isaac...

 

[jon layton]

 Eloquently stated James. Thank you very much Isaac.

[Barbara Ybarra]

So, thanks, Kannon.

Isaac, thanks for the answer.  My goodness, you make conception sound so clinical.

Anyway, until it is cheap and easy, I'm not going to use them.  I don't have the time.  Easy is a good thing. 
 

[amymaddalozzo]

this is just my opinion but I think solar arcs and transits by major planets work best.  Some times when you have a PD  with the progressed sun or mars, PD's work but I still think transits by major planets and solar arcs work best.  AMY

[Kannon McAfee]

I acknowledge my input here has been about why primary directions aren't reliable and have given some reasons why they were dropped. Cochrane says it is mostly because of the technical nature of their calculations.

However, my fundamental dispute with primary directions is the mixed metaphor which forms its basis:  1° of global rotation in mundi. Why? 1° -- or even the daily exact solar movement of that day -- mixes the metaphor.

Day-for-a-year is entirely consistent geocentric metaphor. One rotation of Earth equated to one orbit of Earth. With primary directions there is no revolution or completion of any kind to serve as the basis of a solid metaphor.

Astrologers will never lack for discovery of correlations. I have found perfect progressions in many charts in rectification efforts that make it look like the chart is perfect -- but when there was an entirely wrong sign and degree on the Asc.

Isaac, if primary directions are so accurate, why the need to add in converse directions, secondary progressions, etc, etc?

It is my view that Rudhyar had it right when he said:

It has seemed clear to me for many years that to increase the quantity of information leads most often to a loss of well-focused perception — and that what is most needed is not so much a vast array of surface elements and charts as a penetration in psychological depth based upon relatively few and simple facts.
http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/planetsb4afternatalmoon.php

In order to keep clear perception, our metaphors must be clear, that is, internally consistent, not mixed. It really should't matter that an ancient book or ancient astrologers intuits that a particular notion 'should' work.

Natural phenomenon forms the basis of reality in astrology, not history of use or supposed prestige of the names associated with the practice. I do not worship at the feet of the ancients.  I am not intimidated by the ghosts of history, no matter the clatter their names create.

I don't think any answer to Barbara's question or Halina's creates any clarity on the matter, or addressed what underlies the unquestioned assumptions of the metaphors we take for granted.

Some astrologers seem to work as if any of a number of symbolic applications can be asserted and applied as if the a birth chart is just a plaything for symbolic thinking.

To address solar arcs that Barbara originally asked about, I simply do not use them. I don't need them as they are a symbolic fiction for all progressed planets and points, except for the Sun. I simply refuse to base consultations with clients who are taking my input that may affect life decisions on anything fictional or symbolic for symbolism's sake.

Correlations are good, but not enough. We need to get back to our reality base in nature and what actually happens in the sky.

[Barbara Ybarra]

Well, Kannon, that's fine.  I think a lot of astrologers are with you on that one, but progressions are definitely symbolic.  One rotation of the earth being "equal" to one rotation around the Sun is a big stretch of the imagination.  I think if we can do that, we can also stretch our minds to see that ...as the Sun goes....so goes the rest of the solar system.  Our charts at birth show the planets absolutely fixed in relation to each other..and meaningfully so.  So, when the Sun moves, the whole chart moves!

But I have no problem with your opinion.  It's just that the solar arcs work so damn well..


Barbara